Hillsborough document release

[cgksheff]

But you see that's what the police are there to do..control the crowd.

 

.........

 

I think that you may be over simplifying.

 

Members of the public had ignored/disobeyed earlier instructions from SYP.

Yes. Subsequent directions were also wrong.

 

That is a simple interjection into the a long discussion.

 

Regardless of the responsibilities and actions of the moment, the most serious indictment is the deceipt, the lying and the attempt to cover up.

[Longcol]

There are similarities between Hillsborough and Heysel - probably the biggest being that both grounds were not fit to host the respective games.

 

Both were fairly typical of their time. Heysel, like most continental grounds, didn't have pens on the terraces. Hillsborough, like all British grounds, did.

[Strix]

Sorry I can't go this more tidily on my phone, but I think all this needs saying again:

we've covered this ground before in this thread. The turnstyles were jamming, some were already not functioning prior to the match. Over half an hour before kick off there was a build up of fans outside because the turnstyles were causing a problem. At 2.30 it was calculated that at the current rate of entry it would take until half time for every ticketed fan to enter the ground. Crushing was taking place outside at 2.45, so everybody still at the pub at 2.55 was doing the situation a favour

 

did you watch the video of that posted in this thread in October?

 

The turnstyles were out of action and jamming. Only 1/4 to 1/3 of them were working. By 2.30 there was already a problem outside the ground. Police held 400 fans at wadsley bridge station. They arrived en masse. The fans climbing in HAD TICKETS - watch them in the video. They're doing nothing to avoid police or stewards. They were escaping being crushed OUTSIDE the ground

 

Have a read back through this thread. There's some interesting videos. You can make your own mind up

 

Watch the video Michael, and come back and tell us which fans you saw pushing to get in

 

If you watch, you'll see a street full of fans just walking to the ground. There is no rushing. It's like watching pouring treacle. Nothing happens... just people walking, then slowing down as they arrive at the ground. It's just sheer numbers, not being processed through the gates

 

Watch the video. It's disturbing watching so many people doing nothing unusual or out of the ordinary, just more and more of them arriving in the same place, and a police horse getting into a flap in the middle of it, and a copper shouting for people to move back, but they can't move back because there's already somebody behind them, and more arriving

 

After this event, before computers were commonplace, much was done to monitor and computer model crowd movement. Basically it's like pouring water. The atoms in poured water are part of a flow, and that is how a crowd moves. An individual hemmed in by so many others has no choice but to be carried along with the mass. The studies drastically altered stadium design, particularly approach barriers

 

Please watch the video. It leaves the viewer with a horrible feeling of helplessness

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2013 at 01:48 ----------

 

Both were fairly typical of their time. Heysel, like most continental grounds, didn't have pens on the terraces. Hillsborough, like all British grounds, did.

 

they did have fences between sections of terrace though. Fans queried being put into a mixed pen but police continued herding them in

 

Anyway, that's another topic

Edited May 22, 2013 by Strix

[Mr Bloom]

Members of the public had ignored/disobeyed earlier instructions from SYP.

 

 

 

Could you expand on this please?

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2013 at 01:56 ----------

 

Both were fairly typical of their time. Heysel, like most continental grounds, didn't have pens on the terraces. Hillsborough, like all British grounds, did.

 

Heysel ground was crumbling and unsafe and therefore unfit to host such a match. Hillsborough had no safety certificate.

[Strix]

Could you expand on this please?

I think that may be the mounted policeman that was pretty hysterically shouting at squashed fans to 'get back' when they had nowhere to go due to sheer numbers arriving behind them, as seen on the videos earlier in this thread

[*_ash_*]

Could you expand on this please?

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2013 at 01:56 ----------

 

 

Heysel ground was crumbling and unsafe and therefore unfit to host such a match. Hillsborough had no safety certificate.

 

Did you ever go to Wembley before it was flattened?

[mumkin]

Could you expand on this please?

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2013 at 01:56 ----------

 

 

Heysel ground was crumbling and unsafe and therefore unfit to host such a match. Hillsborough had no safety certificate.

 

Yes it did, albeit a generic one. Bramhall lane, like many other grounds at the time had non.

[Mr Bloom]

Did you ever go to Wembley before it was flattened?

 

Yes, and have been recently. I've also been to Bradford but not Ibrox.

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2013 at 13:57 ----------

 

Yes it did, albeit a generic one. Bramhall lane, like many other grounds at the time had non.

 

Ok, if we're spliltting hairs. Hillsborough didn't have a VALID safety certificate.

 

I'm not sure how Bramall Lane having one or not is relevant to the Hillsborough Disaster. I'm intrigued.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Mr Bloom

[mumkin]

Yes, and have been recently. I've also been to Bradford but not Ibrox.

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2013 at 13:57 ----------

 

 

Ok, if we're spliltting hairs. Hillsborough didn't have a VALID safety certificate.

 

I'm not sure how Bramall Lane having one or not is relevant to the Hillsborough Disaster. I'm intrigued.

 

It was in date

 

Bramall lane is our nearest FL ground that's all. Was just used for illustration purposes to show that there were not many grounds at that time had valid safety Certs. Wednesdays ground was classed as having a valid one, so to use it as a "weapon" to beat someone with is just smoke and mirrors.

Edited May 22, 2013 by mumkin

[Mr Bloom]

It was in date

 

Bramall lane is our nearest FL ground that's all. Was just used for illustration purposes to show that there were not many grounds at that time had valid safety Certs. Wednesdays ground was classed as having a valid one, so to use it as a "weapon" to beat someone with is just smoke and mirrors.

 

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/prosecutions-call-over-lack-of-hillsborough-stadium-safety-certificate-1-4927865

 

It's not a 'weapon', just a fact.