Hillsborough document release

[Blue Day]

The innocent ones' crushed were the ones that arrived in plenty of time. Ok a gate was opened but if the rest of the fans outside leppings lane hadn't been so preoccupied with shoving as much ale down their neck then all arriving.at last minute then things might ve been different. Also surely the turnstiles had a "crowd counter" on them to measure the numbersm

 

There were fans who died in the tunnel - so I think it's safe to assume some who died were the ones who didn't get into the ground until almost 3pm.

 

With reference to numbers in the ground - I've read the initial findings from the enquiry. Using both the counters on the turnstiles and CCTV footage it was calculated that even after 3:06pm when the game stopped the Leppings Lane terrace was NOT overcrowded per se, in that there were (I think the figure was) just over 10,000 fans in that whole area and that was the capacity. Obviously the problem was too many were in the central pens and not in the wings.

 

I also believe IIRC that because of these figures which have never been disputed by anyone, the authorities deduced that there were very few (if at all any) fans in the Leppings Lane end who did not have tickets.

[Alan Ladd]

Im a crowd situation you cannot expect everybody to behave rationally, there has to be an element of crowd control. There also has to be a prearranged plan to take care to changing situations. In my opinion it's criminally negligent to believe that you can "wing it" when things go wrong.

 

Sunday was the 22nd anniversary of 4 of my friends dying when something entirely predictable happened when they were out canoeing, the owner of the company that was hosting the event was convicted of corporate manslaughter.

 

In the context of the situation the fans never turned up late, they turned up at the time that they normally turn up, and there wasn't an abnormal amount of ticketless fans trying to push their way in. So maybe that's why they're not issues?

 

I agree with your first paragraph, and commiserate with you for the loss of your friends in such tragic circumstances.

 

When I have watched the films of the situation outside the Leppings Lane entrance immediately before the gates were opened the situation appears far from normal.

 

Frankly we can discuss the situation until the cows come home and I have no doubt the debate will continue for years whatever the tribunal decides.

 

At the end of the day innocent people, doing no more than wanting to watch a football match were killed in terrible circumstances. All of us are entitled to believe when we go to a large gathering that measures have been put in place to ensure as far as possible that we are safe and secure. At Hillsborough that was not the case. It was a gross dereliction by virtually all involved at senior level.

 

Whilst hoping that lessons have been learned, I cannot close without repeating that we all have a duty to each other to maintain safety. Perhaps had this been in the fans minds rather than the collective excitement of getting into the ground this tragedy could have been avoided.

 

---------- Post added 24-03-2015 at 17:55 ----------

 

Alan Ladd has brought up the position of Bettison in the Hillsboro case and where he might stand in a 'cover-up' enquiry. Some 2 years ago I was asked by our local MP John Mann to assist tracing an ex-Detective I had worked with on the S.Yorks Force. I did find him and you may recall John Mann asking the IPCC to investigate a report that Mann had received relative to basically a 'cover-up' in respect of Bettisons father...I must be careful here because the IPCC returned a decision of no case to answer...Briefly it was alleged that in 1987/8 ? Mr Bettison (senior) tried to sell some platinum wire to Johnson Mathey ( reputable Sheffield dealers in precious metals) It is much more easier to sell diamonds and gold than platinum wire !!! and the firm were suspicious.(Mr Bettison (senior) at the time apparently worked at BSC Rotherham!!) Two Detectives went to Johnson Mathey to investigate and recorded the complaint in their pocket books.(One pocket book still available today) Johnson Mathey were of the opinion that their information would be 'swept under the carpet' due to the son of Mr.Bettison (senior) being a Ch. Insp at Sheffield Police HQ's...apparently nothing did become of the investigation and John Mann asked why - even though it was some years after the event... We are told the IPCC investigated and then dismissed the allegation ( this was widely broadcast on Yorks TV and in local newspapers) I simply quote this to suggest that ex Ch. Constable Bettison is no stranger to allegations of malpractice. A brief 'aside' here is that when I met John Mann (MP) some 2 years ago... he said he had read my first book so I asked him who was the paedophile Home Secretary I mentioned in the book but dare not name - Mann replied "Oh you mean Leon Brittain - everyone at Westminster knew he was messing about with little kids"... Aren't our politicians and policemen wonderful???!

 

I am aware of the original enquiry into the metals allegation. The investigating officers were no friends of the Chief Inspector but did conclude their was no evidence that was likely to lead to a conviction and the matter went no further. I suspect they were right and there was no case to answer.

 

The aspects of what you write that concerns me is the influence of masonic or other organizations on the evidence gathering in the earlier stages of the Hillsborough enquiry and possibly this shocking situation regarding the abuse of children.

 

Whilst the Hillsborough situation is being investigated the child abuse enquiry is only just about to start. How does Mr Mann know that Leon Brittan was an abuser? he was not in parliament at the time. If "everyone knew" why has it taken this long for the allegations to surface?

 

On the face of it this indicates an organized, evil set of men, prepared to abuse power to attack the very weakest in our society, prepared to lie and possibly kill to cover their backs. The truth, not speculation, exaggeration, or gossip must come out.

[Blue Day]

All of us are entitled to believe when we go to a large gathering that measures have been put in place to ensure as far as possible that we are safe and secure. At Hillsborough that was not the case. It was a gross dereliction by virtually all involved at senior level.

 

 

That sums it up really.

 

Yes SOME fans were drunk

 

Many fans arrived later than advised to the ground

 

BUT

 

The police and stewards should have been able to handle that situation - a situation that has happened thousands of times at thousands of games and still happens today.

 

Of course the design of the ground also contributed - what's not been mentioned much is the design at the turnstiles, the path sloped down downwards them thus contributing massively to the crush outside.

 

Since the disaster the turnstiles were moved back many meters and the pavement in front is flat (if not slightly sloping up to the turnstiles).

[panzer1]

I was there on the day as a young PC and to this day I say the people that died were innocent. They got there in time and were there well before the crowds. What you all fail to remember is that LFC fans used the tactic of rushing the gates at numerous venues that season in order to get in without tickets. I still have my pocket book for that day and maybe I could have done more. Unfortunately I was working the South Stand, Notts fans, and had to arrest 2 persons who were drunk, jumped the turnstiles and ran into the stand because they had no tickets BOTH THESE MEN WERE FROM LIVERPOOL ( details still in my book ) but I have not been called to the INDEPENDENT !!! enquiry because they do not want to hear about these people. How could any LFC fans be to blame as according to them they were all stone cold sober and lined up in orderly queues with a ticket to be granted entry. My arrests were repeated all over the ground, each arrest took at least 2 officers ( depending if they were violent or not ) from their posts. The Police are to blame for everything, Hillsborough, Jihadi females running off to Syria etc. Remember they only ever wanted an apology which they have had from Cameron down. At the end of the enquiry that will be it or the cynical amongst us may then wait for the compensation claims to go in.

[Gordonb]

Unfortunately everyone applies today's lifestyle to what took place many years ago.

Many years ago it was accepted that the match would start on time. Delayed kick offs were the exception. Today if there is a genuine reason eg. accident on the approach roads or turn-styles cease to operate or trains break down then the match can be delayed so that no one needs to rush. Yes it is obvious, but we are talking of 20 odd years ago.

Likewise today with all seat grounds it is impossible to have a similar crush but again back then it was totally different.

With regard to compensation claims as I said in a recent post what is the point after all these years. If it was down to needing money what about the disaster fund which was set up at the time which I think raised over £12m.

 

---------- Post added 24-03-2015 at 21:17 ----------

 

I take it that the poster of post 1680 has pre-advised his MP that he is quoting him in writing in a public forum.

[Mr Bloom]

Lets be honest if 2,000 or even 50,000 Liverpool fans had acted in a sensible way approaching the ground with plenty of time and with tickets Duckenfield would not have to had made the fatal decision...why won't some Sheffield 'celebrity' speak out on this issue

 

Yes, please. Let's be honest. See link below on the Taylor report and inadequate turnstiles on the day.

 

What was the suggested arrival time on the tickets, do you know?

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mr Bloom

[*_ash_*]

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Edited March 25, 2015 by *_ash_*
removed as quotes deleted post.

[Mr Bloom]

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Edited March 25, 2015 by Mr Bloom

[esoneulb]

Yes, please. Let's be honest. Subsequent independent judicial enquiries have stated that even if all the Liverpool fans made it by the suggested time on their tickets, they wouldn't have got through the totally inadequate number of turnstiles assigned to the Liverpool area that day.

 

There was the same amount of turnstiles for all the previous semi's held at Hillsborough and the same amount of tickets sold.

[Localman]

Can I just ask people to be cautious about their contributions as, potentially, they could get themselves and SF into serious problems. An article today might help:

 

Kelvin MacKenzie referred to attorney general over Hillsborough article

Sun column was considered for possible contempt of court because it included comment on ongoing inquest

 

Kelvin MacKenzie has been referred to the attorney general over an article he wrote about the Hillsborough disaster in the Sun, it has emerged. It was considered for possible contempt of court because it included comment on the ongoing inquest into the Hillsborough disaster and the deaths of 96 people.

 

In the piece, published in his new column in the Sun, MacKenzie dedicated several hundred words to the testimony of former chief superintendent David Duckenfield.

A spokesperson for Jeremy Wright said: “I can confirm this office has been asked to consider a number of articles, including the one written by Kelvin MacKenzie, regarding the evidence heard in the Hillsborough inquest and last week we issued a media advisory that urged restraint when publishing, including by way of social media. The office is monitoring coverage, and whilst the law officers do not think the coverage they have seen requires action for contempt of court, we do urge everyone to read and adhere to the media advisory.”

 

The media advisory was issued on 16 March, five days before MacKenzie’s piece was published in the Sun. It is understood that none of the articles so far referred are going to result in any legal action. Last year the previous attorney general, Dominic Grieve, warned the public to take care when commenting ahead of the inquest. He also warned editors and publishers “that the inquest proceedings are currently active for the purpose of the Contempt of Court Act 1981”. Contempt of court bars comment on ongoing trials and inquests to avoid the risk of influencing the jury in one direction.

 

The MacKenzie article was brought to the attorney general’s attention by a supporter of the Hillsborough families campaign for justice. The attorney general’s office told him in an email: “We will consider it and take action as appropriate.” MacKenzie was the editor of the Sun the night of the Hillsborough disaster and his paper’s coverage led to the title being boycotted in Liverpool.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/24/kelvin-mackenzie-attorney-general-hillsborough-the-sun?CMP=ema_546