Hillsborough document release

[LeMaquis]

You've said it yourself - it was a crowd. There shouldn't have been a crowd, there should have been queues. That is surely evidence of anarchy, although perhaps a better word would be chaos.

 

A crowd at a FA Cup semi-final. Whatever next. You seem to think that if people aren't formed in orderly queues that constitues anarchy. Anarchy involves a lack of control, violent or otherwise. But there is nothing to suggest that was the case. Ditto for chaos. And if there had been chaos it would have been the job of the stewards and police to sort things out by getting among the crowd. But the police didn't do that. They just opened the gate.

 

You remind me of one of those holocaust-deniers who has an unhealthy obsession with denying reality for no clear reason. Maybe you should have a quiet word with your doctor about your inability to accept the world as it really is.

[mort]

If you cannot remain civil and sensible then i'm happy to issue bans until such time as you can behave like adults.

[Strix]

If that relates to the last paragraph above, mort, it really should be removed, else it is only fair that it is responded to

[*_ash_*]

If that relates to the last paragraph above, mort, it really should be removed, else it is only fair that it is responded to

I'm pretty sure it was to do with the last post which has now gone S.

[Jim Hardie]

if the police had been filtering, then there could have been queues, but if a large body of people arrive at a point together, side by side, as happens outside every football ground every Saturday, then queuing is impossible. There just never is a queue in the first place

 

Look at any bus queue with a group of friends in it. They stand close enough and in a formation where they can all converse

 

Have you never been to a match? Do you not have friends?

 

So at every football ground every Saturday queuing is impossible? I've been going to football matches since the fifties which is why I know that is tripe.

[mikem8634]

Firstly, THAT is not evidence. that is your interpretation of a word I used which you then extrapolated into a theory.

 

Secondly, THIS is evidence - direct quote from the HIP report http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

 

15 April 1989

The circumstances

1.77 Consistent with the Operational Order, many spectators arriving in Sheffield on trains and coaches were escorted by the police from their point of arrival to the stadium. As they approached the stadium there was no filtering of the crowd and the bottleneck at the concourse in front of the turnstiles became tightly packed. With walls, fences or gates to the sides and front of this small area, the only relief was to move backwards. Many more fans arrived, oblivious to the mounting crush at the front, and the situation in the vicinity of the turnstiles soon became critical.

 

 

 

The filtering described - barriers placed further up the street to separate and direct fans - had been used very effectively by SYP the year before. Unfortunately, the operational leader who had done this had been replaced by the clueless Duckenfield.

 

Thirdly, this information (evidence) is freely available in the HIP report which is very easy to Google. Worse still I posted exactly this evidence 7 pages ago in post 822 - a page you also posted on. You have chosen not to read the evidence and continued to make baseless statements.

 

Lastly, can you, for a second, imagine the frustration of having to answer the same questions and challenge the same misconceptions time and time again?

 

Now, are you going to skulk away only to return a few pages later with a similar misconception?

 

Or are you going to acknowledge the evidence I have, once again, been forced to spoon-feed you and explain why you have not bothered to seek it out for yourself?

 

So at every football ground every Saturday queuing is impossible? I've been going to football matches since the fifties which is why I know that is tripe.

 

 

 

Once again, what you know is not evidence no matter how long you have been going to football matches. Evidence requires independent verification. Try saying something then backing it up with some proof that you can provide a link to.

 

So what about the evidence I have once again posted for you Jim (for the third time by the way)? Any response to that? Any counter evidence? It's all there in the report and if you have a look you won't find anyone saying 'well I just know cause I've been going to footy for ages' you will find layers and layers of evidence that blow your opinions out of the water.

[Strix]

So at every football ground every Saturday queuing is impossible? I've been going to football matches since the fifties which is why I know that is tripe.

 

watch the video of the approach to hillsborough on the day, which I linked to. See the volume of people just walking down the street. There is no discernable point at which anybody, even with the advantage of an aerial view, could identify where walking should stop and orderly queuing should start. The whole street is a mass of walking fans. That is why filtering was necessary

 

I have no idea which team you have been watching, but all the matches I have been to have only had converging fans approaching turnstyles, no queues to speak of, just from the nature of the approach and mechanism for entering the ground

[*_ash_*]

watch the video of the approach to hillsborough on the day, which I linked to. See the volume of people just walking down the street. There is no discernable point at which anybody, even with the advantage of an aerial view, could identify where walking should stop and orderly queuing should start. The whole street is a mass of walking fans. That is why filtering was necessary

 

I have no idea which team you have been watching, but all the matches I have been to have only had converging fans approaching turnstyles, no queues to speak of, just from the nature of the approach and mechanism for entering the ground

 

I can't ever recollect being 'filtered'.

 

Then again, I'd never been to a ground where just close to half the crowd entered into such a small corner area (edit, Barnsley away being the nearest I can think of).

[mikem8634]

I can't ever recollect being 'filtered'.

 

Then again, I'd never been to a ground where just close to half the crowd entered into such a small corner area (edit, Barnsley away being the nearest I can think of).

 

Here you go Ash. Hope it's of interest.

 

 

'Over preceding years, police custom and practice had evolved in response to crowd management issues unique to FA Cup semi-finals, particularly filtering access to the concourse through ticket-checking on the approaches, directing incoming spectators away from the central pens when they were estimated to be near capacity, and closing the tunnel when capacity was estimated to have been reached.

 

None of these practices appear to have been recorded and none formed part of the Operational Order or the police briefings before the 1989 Semi-Final.'

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/Section-1/summary/page-5/

 

'I recall the previous year I went to Hillsborough and they seemed to f i l t e r

sections. This year i t did not seem to be happening.'

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/LLS000001290001.pdf

 

 

My reasoning and interest in this is because of people like the earlier posters (much of which has now gone) is because I don't think that people understand information - look at the Hull City fans link a couple of pages back. I don't like to see Sheffield's police and medical staff -as a WHOLE- being called murderers and grubby ******* *******'s as we have seen - and continue to see.

 

I have finally looked at the video of Hull fans abusing SYP and it is an absolute disgrace. I, for one, soundly reject their supposed 'solidarity' with the fight for justice as behaviour such as that has nothing to do with the years of dignified opposition we have seen from the bereaved families. It is good to see some posts on the page

are from Hull fans showing equal disgust in what I imagine is a moronic minority who would use any despicable chant to goad the police. Edited October 20, 2012 by mikem8634

[mikem8634]

Let me help out here:

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0002.html

around the 8 min mark onwards for those of you who are impatient

 

It's interesting to watch those who are climbing the outer fences. They're not entering the ground, they're looking about, many of them searching (presumably for lost friends and family), and some clearly trying to just see inside the turnstiles to see what the hold up is, as well as some just relieved to be out of the bedlam below

 

I haven't had time to watch it all yet. I'll do so later

 

The fans 'running' through gate C are pushed through by the sheer weight of the crowd behind them, but mostly stop and regroup with friends before continuing without running

 

Absolutely excellent post Strix.

 

I cannot add anything that would make it clearer.

 

I would urge anybody who is interested in evidence that shows what actually happened to please watch.

 

It is just shameful and tragic that this evidence, in particular, has been in the public domain for 23 years as it is from the Taylor Report but for some reason more people believed The Sun.