llamatron Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The thing is that the toilet facilities are already being misused. Would you have a problem if a teacher was stationed in the most troublesome facilities? Would you have a problem if a caretaker / cleaner was fixing a loose tap while the facilities are still open? Would you have a problem with using unisex toilets (as an adult, I don't believe them to be appropriate for children)? What measures would you accept to make the use of CCTV [covering entrances and communual areas like sinks] acceptable (e.g. footage encrypted with the Police holding the keys)? Nobody is suggesting the use of CCTV to cover toilets / urinals / showers / changing areas. Do you feel the regulations for CCTV and toilets should be different for schools and other public spaces, even though children may use those other facilities (e.g bus / train station)? Unisex toilets have been proven to be a good way to reduce bullying actually. I believe the layer of pee on the floor of the blokes toilets stopped also. I think they are a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosxuk Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Unisex toilets have been proven to be a good way to reduce bullying actually. I believe the layer of pee on the floor of the blokes toilets stopped also. I think they are a good idea. I've used them loads of times and agree they're a good idea, but I feel, without monitoring, left alone to high school age kids they could become a bit anarchic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteMorris Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 It means that if you know what time frame the toilets were broken, you can also find out who used the facilities in that timeframe. The same could still be achieved with a camera outside of the toilets. If cameras also cover the sink areas, it will also prevent damage to sinks, mirrors and often handdryers. The same could still be achieved with a camera outside of the toilets...sorry I'm repeating myself! With bullying it provides proof as to who was in the toilets after and complaints are made. An old tactic used in my school years ago was for the bullies to simply deny that they were anywhere near the toilets at the time, and then it simply became one person's word against another's, which in turn makes incidents go unreported. As above with the other 2 points ^ Right, so no staff allowed to monitor unruly behaviour, or cameras. Do you have any suggestions as to how the vandalism / bullying that these spaces attract can be reduced? I'm afraid that would be whole new thread. Basically having cameras in there is a poor replacement for good old discipline in schools. The schools I went to nobody would dare damage anything. At my school the caretaking staff would often do minor repair work during lesson time, with the facilities still open, provided it didn't affect the use of said facilities (so if there was only one sink and that needed unblocking, the toilets would be closed, but where there were four sinks, they'd stay open). Likewise, they didn't shut the whole toilet block down just because a couple of cubicles needed some new toilet paper. Maybe that was the case in years gone by. Nowadays it would be foolish in my view to do anything while kids are in and out. It would just be common sense. Of course it could be done during lesson time. Which is why I asked you about how you feel with using them as an adult. Just my opinion of course but, as public toilets, I don't see unisex as being viable. So a camera filming the entrance to a set of toilets in a bus station is ok? No, no problem with that. Assuming of course you mean an entrance, and not inside! It's not though, because if we say that cameras filming the entrances to toilets in a school is an invasion of privacy, then we must also apply that to other areas. If the issue is child protection, then we must also apply the same rules wherever children may be expected to use those facilities. No I don't agree. We all get filmed many many times a day going about our ordinary business. But I don't expect to be filmed in a toilet. No matter which way or where it's pointing What about sports centres, especially those which share facilities with a school. Do they need different requirements for the CCTV coverage depending on what classes are booked in? Maybe, I'm not aware of the policy in sports centres. I just don't think cameras in toilets in general are not needed or warranted. If it's perpetrators that are up to no good as you said yourself, you only need the time frame. So any filming can be done from the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteMorris Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 I've used them loads of times and agree they're a good idea, but I feel, without monitoring, left alone to high school age kids they could become a bit anarchic. Yes I agree. High school age kids, it would be a nightmare for some. Kids can be very cruel (and I don't neccessarily mean bullying). Mixed sex toilets I just dont see working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosxuk Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 What's the difference between a camera outside a toilet filming people going in / out, and a camera inside a toilet filming people going in / out? Provided the cameras are fit-for-pupose and tamperproof (so can't be moved by unruly kids), surely they provide exactly the same purpose? ETA: Just for clarity, my position is that, provided the cameras are fit-for-purpose, only covering areas where there is no expectation for personal privacy (i.e. urinals, showers, cubicles and changing areas), there is no access for people to watch in real time, and there are sufficient access controls to the recorded footage, I have no problem with CCTV being used for this purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteMorris Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 What's the difference between a camera outside a toilet filming people going in / out, and a camera inside a toilet filming people going in / out? Provided the cameras are fit-for-pupose and tamperproof (so can't be moved by unruly kids), surely they provide exactly the same purpose? Which has been my point all along. They don't need to be inside the toilets. If they're outside the toilets, there's less chance of them being damaged or tampered with or broken. It achieves the same job. Inside is just plain wrong!...sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missymoo73 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 bullying of course. Maybe the divide here is between people went to a school where bullies ruled the roost and people that didn't? maybe this is the origin of girls going to the toilets in packs actually, less likely to get your head kicked in when there are loads of you! Then the bullies will just find somewhere else. Maybe a teacher in the toilet block at break times and dinners maybe more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosxuk Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Which has been my point all along. They don't need to be inside the toilets. There is a multitude of reasons why they could be needed to be there. Off the top of my head is things like sightlines and mountings. Example would be at my school, the changing rooms / toilets in the sports block were accessed directly from outside. Mounting an outside camera would require either several wall mounted ones, or one on a pole in the middle of a football pitch. Alternatively, a single one mounted in the "reception" area of the changing room would do the job fine. If they're outside the toilets, there's less chance of them being damaged or tampered with or broken. It achieves the same job. If the cameras are fit-for-purpose, then they won't be tampered with without tools. It's also quite easy to protect cameras against accidental / minor damage, and for serious intentional damage, you should be able to find the culprit quite easily because they came in the loos carrying a hammer / crowbar, which will all be recorded. Inside is just plain wrong!...sorry! I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what you're basing this on. How does being on one side of the door or the other matter at all if they're recording exactly the same information? Then the bullies will just find somewhere else. Maybe a teacher in the toilet block at break times and dinners maybe more appropriate. PeteMorris has already said he would find this objectionable too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missymoo73 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 PeteMorris has already said he would find this objectionable too. he may find it objectionable but I dont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteMorris Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 Then the bullies will just find somewhere else. Maybe a teacher in the toilet block at break times and dinners maybe more appropriate. I think somewhere earlier on in thread, someone said that they are not required to do duties like this any more. Some sort of union agreement apparently. I agree with your comment about bullies. You hear of cyber bullying (Facebook and text messages..etc). On the way to and from school, back of the bike sheds. It seems the modern answer to bullying is 'get it on film'...doesn't matter where the cameras are...just get em on film!..It's not the answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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