Are CCTV cameras in school toilets and changing rooms acceptable?

[PeteMorris]

he may find it objectionable but I dont

 

I didn't say I find it objectionable. Just that I wouldn't expect a teacher to be 'on station' in the loos all of the time.

[Bypassblade]

I remember when at school, every now & then @ breaks a teacher would come in to try to catch smokers. If it was Mr Jay he used to tap me up a a fag, same as in his lesson, he'd tell me and my mate to come into store room @ back then tap us for a fag, next time he'd crash the ash.

[PeteMorris]

There is a multitude of reasons why they could be needed to be there. Off the top of my head is things like sightlines and mountings. Example would be at my school, the changing rooms / toilets in the sports block were accessed directly from outside. Mounting an outside camera would require either several wall mounted ones, or one on a pole in the middle of a football pitch. Alternatively, a single one mounted in the "reception" area of the changing room would do the job fine.

 

I've seen lots of cameras covering outside doors. Nightclubs for instance. They don't seem to have a problem mounting them!

 

If the 'reception' area of the changing rooms is totally separate from the 'actual' changing area, then fine. I don't have a problem with that either.

 

If the cameras are fit-for-purpose, then they won't be tampered with without tools. It's also quite easy to protect cameras against accidental / minor damage, and for serious intentional damage, you should be able to find the culprit quite easily because they came in the loos carrying a hammer / crowbar, which will all be recorded.

 

I'm slightly confused by your phrase 'fit for purpose'. Also, if someone is intent on doing damage, do you seriously think they will boldly wander in brandishing a crowbar, or hammer or screwdriver? They might be complete dumplings, but they're certainly going to try to avoid either being in the sight of a camera, and conceal their implements. Which is why a camera outside would be better suited, then there is clear footage of them going in there!

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what you're basing this on. How does being on one side of the door or the other matter at all if they're recording exactly the same information?

 

I find it odd too that if your assertion of "it's recording exactly the same information" Why it has to be inside? I believe there are boundaries whereby you should not step over the mark, and having cameras inside a toilet is (for me) not just overstepping the mark, but one hell of a leap!

 

Maybe it's just me, I dunno. As a for instance which is nothing to do with this subject I know. My missuses handbag. I enfuriate her immensely when she says can you get so and so, out of my bag? I'll gladly go and fetch the handbag for her to retrieve whatever it is she wants, but I wouldn't dream of actually rooting through any womans handbag, even with permission. To me it's a completely private place that I wouldn't violate, even as I said with permission!

[Joanl]

My niece ranted on FB the other day that "a new boy had nicked her little girls new coat out of the cloakroom" Strange, I thought, why would a little boy want a little girls coat? anyway, she was livid and was going up to school to see the flippin teacher (her words....almost)

I asked yesterday if she'd got it back....."Yes" she said,"someone had picked it up off the floor and hung it back up on a different peg"............Simples but would have been so much easier if, at the click of a button, they could have seen this on cctv and the poor new boy wouldn't have been cursed all weekend for something he was totally innocent of.

[PeteMorris]

My niece ranted on FB the other day that "a new boy had nicked her little girls new coat out of the cloakroom" Strange, I thought, why would a little boy want a little girls coat? anyway, she was livid and was going up to school to see the flippin teacher (her words....almost)

I asked yesterday if she'd got it back....."Yes" she said,"someone had picked it up off the floor and hung it back up on a different peg"............Simples but would have been so much easier if, at the click of a button, they could have seen this on cctv and the poor new boy wouldn't have been cursed all weekend for something he was totally innocent of.

 

I think a cloak room scenario is slightly different to toilets and changing rooms. I would agree with you in the case of a cloak room.

[dosxuk]

I've seen lots of cameras covering outside doors. Nightclubs for instance. They don't seem to have a problem mounting them!

 

You'll also find that the doors have cameras on the inside filming people as they come in. The outside cameras are almost always covering access routes for a general overview, fire doors where people may try and break in and queuing areas.

 

You always get better pictures being inside the doorway with people facing the camera than from the outside where they can come from any direction. I've installed cameras doing exactly this into several nightclubs, and been involved in the planning stages of several more.

 

If the 'reception' area of the changing rooms is totally separate from the 'actual' changing area, then fine. I don't have a problem with that either.

 

It wasn't. You go through the door, round a corner and there's people getting changed. Any camera would be best installed at the end of the wall from the corridor, facing directly away from the changing area, but filming everyone as they come in.

 

I'm slightly confused by your phrase 'fit for purpose'.

 

I mean a camera which is designed to be used in spaces where manipulation by unauthorised persons is undesired. This means housings which must be opened to adjust the camera settings, which can only be done with specialised tools. Camera mountings which can't be turned because of how they're mounted to the wall / ceiling. Being made of materials which are difficult to tamper with.

 

Also, if someone is intent on doing damage, do you seriously think they will boldly wander in brandishing a crowbar, or hammer or screwdriver? They might be complete dumplings, but they're certainly going to try to avoid either being in the sight of a camera, and conceal their implements. Which is why a camera outside would be better suited, then there is clear footage of them going in there!

 

Someone being filmed entering a room, facing towards them as they enter, is going to be much better placed to see any concealed implements than one which is only capable of seeing their back.

 

I find it odd too that if your assertion of "it's recording exactly the same information" Why it has to be inside?

 

I'm not saying it has to be inside. I'm saying that I don't believe there is any real reason why it can't be inside. If the reasons for the installation, the layout of the space, and all other considerations for camera placement are satisfied by it being outside, then there is nothing wrong with doing that.

 

I believe there are boundaries whereby you should not step over the mark, and having cameras inside a toilet is (for me) not just overstepping the mark, but one hell of a leap!

 

It sounds to me that you're basing this entirely from an emotional point of view, rather than looking at from a functional/logical point of view. You're saying you don't want cameras in there because it's a toilet, where as I'm saying that provided it's not covering areas where you expect privacy, I have no problem with what the room is titled.

[Joanl]

I think a cloak room scenario is slightly different to toilets and changing rooms. I would agree with you in the case of a cloak room.

 

But it's not as if they are going to put cameras in the toilet bowls or urinals is it:?: They aren't going to be spying on whether they do a no. 1 or a no 2 or if they use 2 squares of paper or none at all. The cameras will be only "looking out for them" not overseeing what they do.

[PeteMorris]

You'll also find that the doors have cameras on the inside filming people as they come in. The outside cameras are almost always covering access routes for a general overview, fire doors where people may try and break in and queuing areas.

 

Ah, well I think we 'may' be getting to a meeting of minds here. All the talk thus far on this thread has been of cameras facing 'into' toilet areas (not overlooking cubicles obviously), to watch over handbasins etc. If you are refering to a camera inside the area facing the door, then I find that slightly more acceptable. But only in as much as seeing 'traffic through the door'.

 

You always get better pictures being inside the doorway with people facing the camera than from the outside where they can come from any direction. I've installed cameras doing exactly this into several nightclubs, and been involved in the planning stages of several more.

 

I can understand that logic!

 

 

It wasn't. You go through the door, round a corner and there's people getting changed. Any camera would be best installed at the end of the wall from the corridor, facing directly away from the changing area, but filming everyone as they come in.

 

As above^

 

I mean a camera which is designed to be used in spaces where manipulation by unauthorised persons is undesired. This means housings which must be opened to adjust the camera settings, which can only be done with specialised tools. Camera mountings which can't be turned because of how they're mounted to the wall / ceiling. Being made of materials which are difficult to tamper with.

 

I understand your reference now.

 

 

Someone being filmed entering a room, facing towards them as they enter, is going to be much better placed to see any concealed implements than one which is only capable of seeing their back.

 

I agree.

 

I'm not saying it has to be inside. I'm saying that I don't believe there is any real reason why it can't be inside. If the reasons for the installation, the layout of the space, and all other considerations for camera placement are satisfied by it being outside, then there is nothing wrong with doing that.

 

Quite

 

It sounds to me that you're basing this entirely from an emotional point of view, rather than looking at from a functional/logical point of view. You're saying you don't want cameras in there because it's a toilet, where as I'm saying that provided it's not covering areas where you expect privacy, I have no problem with what the room is titled.

 

No it's not an emotional thing. I've conceded that if it's simply watching the comings and goings through the door, and looking in the direction of the door, then although I'm not completely overjoyed with the prospect, it 'may' be acceptable. But as I said, not facing 'into' the room.

[dosxuk]

Ah, well I think we 'may' be getting to a meeting of minds here.

 

Yay

 

All the talk thus far on this thread has been of cameras facing 'into' toilet areas (not overlooking cubicles obviously), to watch over handbasins etc. If you are refering to a camera inside the area facing the door, then I find that slightly more acceptable. But only in as much as seeing 'traffic through the door'.

 

But I think we'll have to disagree here...

 

Every camera should be assessed individually and properly before its installation is even considered. If there are serious issues with vandalism / bullying going on in a toilet block, it may be more important to cover the communual areas of that toilet block. If there are only minor issues and concerns, a camera outside could be sufficient. The middle range of problems could justify a camera on this inside covering only the door.

 

I personally see more issues with who has access to the pictures and how well they're protected than whether they're covering the sinks or not.

[PeteMorris]

Yay

 

 

 

But I think we'll have to disagree here...

 

Every camera should be assessed individually and properly before its installation is even considered. If there are serious issues with vandalism / bullying going on in a toilet block, it may be more important to cover the communual areas of that toilet block. If there are only minor issues and concerns, a camera outside could be sufficient. The middle range of problems could justify a camera on this inside covering only the door.

 

I personally see more issues with who has access to the pictures and how well they're protected than whether they're covering the sinks or not.

 

I do agree with your issues in relation to the access to the footage too. That needs very strict control.

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the direction of view. I think if a school has issues with vandalism and or bullying, it needs tackling by other means. Not 'lets get the buggers on film'. Most head teaches know exactly who the trouble makers are. Tackle it head on, not wait for them to be caught on camera!