ANGELFIRE1 Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Are we all looking at this wrong ? On the last atos thread someone helpfully posted the figures of people unable to work now and unable to work in the 70s I think. The difference was massive. There must be people on the fiddle, I'm sure both "sides" in this argument would admit it. But the bigger question should be why are the Nhs not fixing people better ? If people are classed as fit for work but are in constant pain are the Nhs trying to help them or are they just masking the pain ? Sadly some of us are unable to be repaired by the NHS. We then have to "manage" (with help) our pain. It's as simple as that. Angel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Ok to bring it back on topic then. The system clearly allows somepeople to fiddle the system. See the one of the examples I enclosed in my previous post (if you need more examples I can find them). So if the current system Atos isnt working then whats your alternative do nothing! Something has to be done so benefits go to those that need them not those that are fiddling the system. Take the oposition to the support for the paraolympics from Atos. These Paraolympians are hard working people that have despite a disability done really well. So why cant other people do that rather than staying on the sick. No the alternative is not to do nothing. The alternative is to have an intelligent, efficient and well-targeted fraud detection regime rather than a system that automatically treats every disabled person as if they are suspected of fraud. But there wouldn't be much profit in that for the likes of Atos would there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodmally Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 No the alternative is not to do nothing. The alternative is to have an intelligent, efficient and well-targeted fraud detection regime rather than a system that automatically treats every disabled person as if they are suspected of fraud. But there wouldn't be much profit in that for the likes of Atos would there? However whos to pay for this alternative system. People proving they are deserving of benefits is key to any system. Its our money at the end of the day. We cant just give out money because someone says they are ill it has to be means tested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Are we all looking at this wrong ? On the last atos thread someone helpfully posted the figures of people unable to work now and unable to work in the 70s I think. The difference was massive. There must be people on the fiddle, I'm sure both "sides" in this argument would admit it. But the bigger question should be why are the Nhs not fixing people better ? If people are classed as fit for work but are in constant pain are the Nhs trying to help them or are they just masking the pain ? There's going to be demographic changes as well. More older people. More fat people. More diabetes. Lower levels of physical activity. etc... etc... etc... All expensive to the tax payer but treating every disabled person like they are a fraudster and as a profit making opportunity is not a correct or appropriate response to these challenges. The underlying issues need to be dealt with methodically. It might take time. It will cost money. It won't make for headline-grabbing policies that can be executed in a single parliament but it would be better for the country if we could deal with the issues properly. Treating all disabled people like potential criminals has to be one of the very worst ways of dealing with the issues. History won't judge this well at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 However whos to pay for this alternative system. People proving they are deserving of benefits is key to any system. Its our money at the end of the day. We cant just give out money because someone says they are ill it has to be means tested. Nobody claiming disability benefits just gets money given to them. That has never been the system. Medical evidence was always required. Levels of fraud are low and always have been. Before Atos fraud was detected and dealt with. A properly targeted and efficient fraud detection system would surely cost less than the £400m Atos will be paid. But that doesn't fit the agenda of removing hundreds of thousands of people off their benefits. Atos are there to do the dirty work and take the flak. That's why they get paid so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradescanthia Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Sadly some of us are unable to be repaired by the NHS. We then have to "manage" (with help) our pain. It's as simple as that. Angel. I fully agree my friend. certain conditions cannot be 'fixed' only 'managed' using a cocktail of drugs. These drugs are pretty powerfull, you only live half a life whilst taking them...........but it's better than the pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kersplosh Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Sadly some of us are unable to be repaired by the NHS. We then have to "manage" (with help) our pain. It's as simple as that. Angel. :clap: We are not without a voice Angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheff1johnny Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 heres some more damming evidence obtained through a freedom of information request Services Contracts Correspondence Team (MSCCT) Freedom of Information Officer. You asked 1. how many people in the previous 12 months have had their medical assessment recorded 2. what punitive measures are in place if a Healthcare Professional (HCP), makes a serious mistake In response to Q 1 for the period October 2011 (when the Work Capability Assessments commenced) until 28 August 2012, 293 claimants have had their medical assessment audio recorded. In reply to Q 2 all HCPs work to Atos Healthcare Professional Standards and they are registered with the relevant Professional Body e.g. the General Medical Council or Nursing and Midwifery Council or Health Professions Council. Atos Healthcare monitors the performance of all HCPs, and all issues of complaint are investigated with management action being taken if appropriate. The outcome of complaint investigations may range from no action (where an HCP has acted in accordance with professional standards), to remedial action, to support the HCP through re-training where this is considered appropriate. Atos Healthcare applies both capability and disciplinary procedures. Atos Healthcare can consider formal action to ask the Department’s Chief Medical Adviser (CMA) to remove the HCP from the list of approved HCPs who are able to undertake DWP medical assessment and Atos Healthcare will not employ the HCP in the future. Depending upon the findings of the investigation this may also include informing the relevant professional body. If any individual HCP’s work is found to be deficient, they are contacted by a mentor who is an HCP with specific responsibility in this area. The mentor will arrange for retraining if it is considered necessary, or feedback face to face, by letter or telephone call depending upon the severity and importance of the issue raised. Targeted audit is used when a problem has been identified with a particular HCP, as a result of random audit, a complaint, rework of a medical report or as a chance finding. The targeted audit involves consideration of a number of reports completed by the HCP concerned, in order to gauge the overall standard of his or her work. Persistent failure, despite remedial action by Atos Healthcare, to meet a satisfactory standard may result in revocation of approval to carry out medical assessments by the CMA. If you have any queries about this letter please contact me quoting the reference number above. Yours sincerely Pamela Cuerden Freedom of Information Officer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Thanks sheff1johnny. Very interesting. On the subject of Atos medical staff, as already pointed out, not all of them are doctors. Some are nurses for example, trained to do a specific role that reduces the assessment to a list of check boxes. Of course the doctors employed by Atos do the same. This is what is disappointing. These people are medical professionals. They should know that disabled people have a package of problems that can't just be distilled into a checklist assessment. That the opinion of the professional that know them best can be over-ridden by a nurse with a checklist is preposterous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheff1johnny Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Atos needs to be stopped, and they are as bad as A4E. They have no consience, and when there are no real punishments in place, they never will. I wish someone would take the hcp through the civil court for libel. It'd be good to see the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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