Pub Hours

[gizmo]

Originally posted by Tony

 

I believe that the upshot will be a new round of pubs going out of business.

The trouble with the council issuing licences is that they won’t be able to resist playing petty politics with the system.

 

yes i quite agree,and ill bet any money you like this is exactly what is going to happen.

 

this is what has killed the griffin,and the word on the street is that the empty building is to be bought by a parish councilor and not to be reopened as a pub, all done legitimately of course.

 

i like many others are furious this has been allowed to happen.

 

i stood before the licencing magistrates a few times to get a licence,harsh they were but you knew they were impartial

[Andy C]

Seeing as pub closures is quite a current topic, those talking about the Griffin may like to write an article on the subject and submit it to be published in CAMRA's Beer Matters magazine - the editor is always looking out for contributions.

 

http://www.sheffieldcamra.co.uk

[Tony]

Andy C - I'm not sure that CAMRA would like to hear about my exploits in the Griffin. It mainly involved large quantities of cooking lager and girls.

[Tony]

Originally posted by gizmo

i stood before the licencing magistrates a few times to get a licence,harsh they were but you knew they were impartial

Whereas, councillors as a breed have absolutely no compunction at using whatever is the topic of the month in their ward to further their, and thier parties interests. This will be a sad day for our pubs and bars in places like Sheffield.

[gizmo]

Originally posted by Tony

Whereas, councillors as a breed have absolutely no compunction at using whatever is the topic of the month in their ward to further their, and thier parties interests. This will be a sad day for our pubs and bars in places like Sheffield.

 

well said Tony, its better to know you been granted or denied your licence on the letter of the law rather than party political interest

[Andy C]

I think it isn't actually the elected councillors that do the hearing, it is a properly qualified licensing committee. Hopefully it should cut down on red tape. However if the issue of licenses are affected by party political view points, I do agree it is a sad day!

[Tony]

It won't cut down on red tape, it will just replace it with another length of red tape that is costing everyone a fortune to learn about. Remember also that council officers respond to whichever councillor is banging on their desks that day. These decisions arent taken by officers in a politics free vacuum.

 

What astounds me is that morons like CAMRA are supporting this retrograde step. I know of virtually no-one in the trade that wants it.

[gizmo]

Originally posted by Tony

It won't cut down on red tape, it will just replace it with another length of red tape that is costing everyone a fortune to learn about. Remember also that council officers respond to whichever councillor is banging on their desks that day. These decisions arent taken by officers in a politics free vacuum.

 

What astounds me is that morons like CAMRA are supporting this retrograde step. I know of virtually no-one in the trade that wants it.

 

more words of wisdom from Mr "T"

 

anyone who thinks the new system is going to be fairer is simply living in cuckoo land. anyone with a grudge against a pub can lobby their local councilor,if enough people do it he/she sees political gain in it and goes to the licencing committee (which is going to be made up in part of council members, i understand that part of the last power sharing deal was that the lib dems were given control of it) and hey presto no licence granted.

 

and as for CAMRA, those flagan using, arran jumper wearing fools

........................... nuff said

 

ooooooo and by the way,anyone living in the north of the city that gets the "Look Local" free paper, theres an article about the griffin closure

 

if the letter writer is reading this i challenge them to explain why any enquiries about the pub is met with the response that it will never open again as a pub and then tell us who exactly has killed 300 years of history,the landlord or the local residents.

[Pete1024]

I'm leaving the trade alltogether now as I see these new laws as a threat to my business:

 

* Local pubs will have short hours as they might make 'noise' in residential areas

* City pubs will be open 24hrs and violent crime in city's will increase but happen accross a broader period of time.

* Small pubs will be burdened with requirements such as disabled access, extra fire measures, and anything else the council feels like 'updating' in their health and saftey policies.

* Small pubs now faced with £30,000+ worth of cost to remain trading WILL close.

* The only survivour the city centre bar, where people who used to drink socially in local pubs now go, they get wasted and cause fights.

 

Oh dear.

[Andy C]

I would point out that CAMRA is a consumer group, not a trade body.

 

I'm sure you will find most consumers want to be treated like adults and drink when they want to, not all be thrown out onto the street at the arbirtary time of 11pm to literally fight for taxis home.

 

Below I have reproduced a press release put out by CAMRA last November on the subject:

 

http://www.camra.org.uk/SHWebClass.asp?WCI=FrameSet

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7 out of 10 adults want longer pub opening hours

 

 

Pub-goers look forward to ‘biggest change in liquor licensing law in living memory’

 

Issued 8th November 2002. Not for use until 0000 Monday 11th November.

 

Research released today shows strong and increasing public support for the reform of liquor licensing laws in England and Wales. In response, CAMRA, the Campaign for Real Ale, is urging pub-goers to make their views known to Tony Blair by supporting its ‘Time for Choice’ campaign following the announcement that the ‘Alcohol and Entertainment Bill’ is to be included in the Queen’s Speech on November 13th following years of campaigning.

 

Public opinion tracking research commissioned by CAMRA shows a significant increase between July 1999 and July 2002 in the percentage of adults who support a more relaxed approach to pub opening hours. The consumer group has launched a web site petition and distributed campaign postcards aimed at MPs and the Prime Minister to its 66,000 members.

 

Mike Benner, Head of Campaigns and Communications said, "On the eve of the biggest changes in liquor licensing law in living memory, consumers are looking forward to a fairer deal on pub opening hours. The Government has a Manifesto commitment to reform our antiquated licensing laws and we want to show Tony Blair that he has the support of Britain’s pub-goers in reforming licensing law at the earliest opportunity."

 

CAMRA’s research shows:

 

68% of adults think a pub should be able to open when the landlord pleases, providing the local community is protected from excessive noise and nuisance. Public support has increased by 11% since 1999.

Nearly two-thirds (62%) of adults believe they should have the opportunity to drink in pubs at any time they choose.

Less than one third of adults think there will be more disorder in town centres if closing times varied from pub to pub.

Mike Benner added, "Nearly 7 out of 10 people support a more relaxed approach to pub opening hours and this support has increased by 11% in the last 3 years. The findings suggest that most people realise that the proposed new laws won’t result in a free-for-all with little protection for communities from problem pubs. Any pubs which would like to open their doors for longer will have to submit an operating plan to the licensing authorities to which residents and the police will be able to object. Most pubs, with the exception of some large town centre bars, will probably just apply for an extra hour or two at weekends, depending on what their customers would like to see."

 

CAMRA is also welcoming moves to make pubs more family-friendly by making it easier for pubs to cater for families.

 

Mike Benner added, "Previous attempts to help pubs cater for families with children via the ‘Children’s Certificates’ system have led to ridiculous demands on pubs and widespread inconsistencies across licensing areas. The new laws will not lead to a situation where children will have free access to all pubs, but will make it easier for publicans to offer suitable facilities for families to enjoy time together in their local."

 

John Grogan MP, Chairman of the Parliamentary Licensing Reform Panel, and a leading figure in the campaign for licensing reform, has welcomed CAMRA’s new postcard campaign.

 

Mr Grogan said, "It is now time for the Government to call last orders on liquor licensing laws which date back to the days of Lloyd George. The Government must now deliver on its promise to modernise the law in this area. "

 

CAMRA has been campaigning for licensing reform for several years as parts of the current laws date back nearly one hundred years and are out of line with the needs of today’s consumers and tourists.

 

The British Tourist Authority has also voiced its support for reform.

 

Kurt Janson, Head of Policy at the BTA said, "Modernising liquor licensing, combined with a review of public entertainment licensing, would greatly enhance overseas visitors’ enjoyment of their stay in Britain by increasing their choice and providing a social environment that reflects modern lifestyles."

 

Mr. Benner said, "It is unfair on both consumers and publicans that pubs are forced to close at 11pm every night. It is out of line with today’s 24 hour economy and Britain’s tourism industry. The terminal hour puts undue stress on the police and local services at weekends as town centres are invaded by people who have all been kicked out of the pub at the same time and all want the same taxi and kebab. A more relaxed approach will help relieve the stresses that current restrictions cause."

 

"The message for Tony Blair is clear – the majority of British consumers support reform and the introduction of a new Licensing Act should start with the Queen’s Speech on November 13th."

 

Pub-goers can support CAMRA’s campaign at http://www.camra.org.uk/pubhours

 

Notes for editors

 

A Brief history of Licensing Law

 

1872-

 

The Intoxicating Liquor (Licensing) Bill of 1872 first introduced restrictions on opening hours and was universally reviled. 800,000 people petioned against the Bill. The Bill was eventually passed and became known as the Aberdare Act.The Act sought to put an end to gin palace type premises and was designed to make life difficult for landlords.

 

1914 –1918

 

Licensing changes introduced. In August 1914 powers to close public houses and to restrict pub opening hours were given to military and naval authorities. This power was extended to civil authorities shortly afterwards.

 

In October 1914 evening closing time in London became 10.00pm instead of 12.30am.

 

In 1915 opening hours were reduced from 16-17 hours (19.5 hours in London) to 5.5 hours and evening closing was 9 – 9.30pm.

 

In 1916 the Government via the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) took over the four breweries in Carlisle as well as 235 pubs in the Carlisle, Gretna and Annan area. The next year pubs in the Enfield Lock area of London and Invergordon in Scotland were taken over. In all these areas there were worries that the effectiveness of the munitions factories were being endangered by drunkenness amongst the workers.

 

The State Management System , as it was called, banned Sunday drinking, the consumption of spirits on a Saturday and the use of spirit chasers. Food, soft drinks and facilities for women were introduced to pubs.

 

There was even a call for the Nationalisation of the brewing industry and pubs.

 

The 1921 Licensing Act transferred the assets of the Control Board to The Home Office and The Scottish Office. The State Management system carried on until it was abolished by Harold Wilson in the 1970s. The 1921 Act also set opening hours at 8-9 hours a day, with afternoon closing. And 5 hours on a Sunday.

 

The 1964 Licensing Act

 

This Act replaced the 1921 Licensing Act and other subsequent amendments.

 

Since 1964 there have been at least a dozen separate Acts and Deregulation Orders making certain amendments and adjustments to licensing law. These include all day opening on weekdays (1988); all day opening on Sundays (1995). This piecemeal tinkering with licensing legislation continues. Currently the Government is finalising legislation to allow pubs to stay open for up to 36 hours over the New Years Eve period.

 

The 1964 Act runs to 155 pages; 204 sections and 15 schedules.It includes regulations for seamen’s canteens, licences in the Carlisle district and Sunday closing in Wales and Monmouth! The latest Licensing Bill promises to ‘sweep away more red tape than any other Bill in histroy’ and 33 separate statutes will disappear

 

Opening hours in other EuropeanCoutries

 

Belgium

 

Hours very flexible. Bars open (and close) when they like and licensing magistrates rarely impose restrictions on opening hours

 

Finland

 

Max hours 9.00am – 1.30am (an extension of 2 hours can be granted).

 

Norway

 

10.00am – midnight. Friday and Saturday till 3.00am.

 

Netherlands

 

Fixed hours for particular pubs, but there are always pubs that stay open from early to very late.

 

Supplementary notes

 

The ‘Time for Reform’ White Paper on Licensing law was published in July 2001. It proposed to modernise licensing law and give a boost to tourism. Key features include a single premises licence, a personal licence, flexible opening hours and a shift of administration of licensing to local authorities with appeals being dealt with by Magistrates.

It is widely expected that the Alcohol and Entertainment Licensing Bill will be included in the Queen’s Speech on November 13th. If included, it should receive royal assent by July 2003 with the new laws coming into force by July 2004. The DCMS is working closely with key industry bodies to ensure the smooth introduction of the new Act.

CAMRA’s ‘Time for Choice’ postcard campaign also asks pub goers to send postcards to their local MPs asking them to support Early Day Motion 1620 tabled by Lembit Opik MP. The EDM already has the support of 64 MPs.

The postcard campaign message to Tony Blair reads, "Our restrictive licensing laws were designed for the 19th century and are in need of reform. A more relaxed approach towards opening times will mean greater freedom of choice for us all, and help stamp out a culture of binge drinking. I urge you to fulfill your manifesto commitment to modernise our licensing laws by including a licensing Bill in the Queen’s speech."

 

 

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