EbonyBranch Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 He's free to start up his own scout movement of one. My boy, who doesn't believe in any god, or even of the possibility of one, who is of a similar age, had no worries about the pledge - as he explained to me: it's only a "lie" if you do believe in god and don't mean it. If you don't believe in God, then pledging to do your duty to a non-existent deity is not the same as claiming you believe in a god. It's just repeating some meaningless word on the piece of paper. A small price to pay for all the fun to be had in the scouting movement. This kid is clearly a little hard of thinking, which I expect is because his dad does most of it for him. Yes, we should definitely be teaching our kids this kind of cynical, disingenuous, self-serving sophistry. It's what Baden-Powell would have wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janie48 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 An amateur group of Islamic film makers have posted a video on YouTube which mocks Christianity and Jesus Christ It is believed to be so offensive that St Peters church in Shrewsbury have postponed their tea and cake morning until next Wednesday, and Dorothy Green from Margate has written in to Points of view By the way your mate Fred got that one in first. http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9252497&postcount=510 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanerothyme Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Yes, we should definitely be teaching our kids this kind of cynical, disingenuous, self-serving sophistry. It's what Baden-Powell would have wanted. In what way is it "sophistry"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 No need to put your own interpretations onto others. I say that you can have a wide interpretation of the word duty. The Association do not impose any devotion upon Scouts or Cubs. If one chooses to feel that their 'duty' to some 'god' is to carry on with their life as normal, they are free to do so. The Association do put a higher demand upon their Leaders, however. They are expected to acknowledge their "belief in a higher being". That would still be acknowledging there is a God, which would be untrue to the atheist's (absence of) belief. It would appear that part of the duty to God is taking part in prayer and worship, as indicated by the Scouts' Method of Scouting: The Method of Scouting Scouting uses a Method that is best seen when young people, in partnership with adults, are: enjoying what they are doing; learning by doing; participating in varied and progressive activities; making choices for themselves; taking responsibility for their own actions; working in groups; taking increasing responsibility for others; taking part in activities outdoors; sharing in prayer and worship; and making and living out their Promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Also, you can only be a "successful Scout" if you "discover the need for prayer and worship" How do we know if Scouting is succeeding? It is believed that Scouting is succeeding when Members demonstrate: a growing sense of self-discipline and self-esteem with integrity, honesty and reliability - one who can be trusted; a growing ability to get along with others as an individual and as a team member - showing a sense of responsibility towards others; a growing determination to work with others towards the creation of a more tolerant and caring society; a growing understanding of the natural world in which we live, and a sense of responsibility towards it and those who live in it; and a growing sense of wonder and a discovery of the need for prayer and worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 In what way is it "sophistry"? Because he's using insincere reasons to deceive people that he believes in god. As you admitted, he knows it to be a "lie", but he goes along with it anyway, presumably with a wry smile or with his fingers crossed behind his back. The 11 year old George Pratt is above this sophistry. Whilst I accept that your son's attitude is the most common, and it is what I would have done had I not believed in God during my time in the Cubs and Scouts, I now think that George Pratt's attitude is admirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Because he's using insincere reasons to deceive people that he believes in god. As you admitted, he knows it to be a "lie", but he goes along with it anyway, presumably with a wry smile or with his fingers crossed behind his back. The 11 year old George Pratt is above this sophistry. Whilst I accept that your son's attitude is the most common, and it is what I would have done had I not believed in God during my time in the Cubs and Scouts, I now think that George Pratt's attitude is admirable. It also means that he is NOT a Scout. It breaks Scout law. An atheist technically cannot be a Scout because they have to make a promise they cannot keep and have no intention of keeping... On my honour, I promise that I will do my best To do my duty to God and to the Queen, To help other people And to keep the Scout Law Which breaks Scout law... The Scout Law A Scout is to be trusted. A Scout is loyal. A Scout is friendly and considerate. A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts. A Scout has courage in all difficulties. A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property. A Scout has self-respect and respect for others. 1. A SCOUT'S HONOUR IS TO BE TRUSTED. If a scout says "On my honour it is so," that means it is so, just as if he had taken a most solemn oath. Similarly, if a scout officer says to a scout, "I trust you on your honour to do this," the Scout is bound to carry out the order to the very best of his ability, and to let nothing interfere with his doing so. If a scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he would cease to be a scout, and must hand over his scout badge and never be allowed to wear it again. From the man himself. A Scout who doesn't speak truthfully is not trustworthy, and therefore no longer a Scout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 As RootsBooster logically shows, an atheist that wants to be a part of the scouting movement has two choices. Either lie, or naff off. It seems that the scouting movement cannot make room for George Pratt or the increasing numbers of young people who cannot, in good conscience, swear that they are believers. It is not the all inclusive organisation that they claim to be. If they don't want to be then fine, they should just stop claiming they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EbonyBranch Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 It also means that he is NOT a Scout. It breaks Scout law. An atheist technically cannot be a Scout because they have to make a promise they cannot keep and have no intention of keeping... On my honour, I promise that I will do my best To do my duty to God and to the Queen, To help other people And to keep the Scout Law Which breaks Scout law... The Scout Law A Scout is to be trusted. A Scout is loyal. A Scout is friendly and considerate. A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts. A Scout has courage in all difficulties. A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property. A Scout has self-respect and respect for others. From the man himself. A Scout who doesn't speak truthfully is not trustworthy, and therefore no longer a Scout. Someone in the scouting movement should be ensuring that no pesky atheists get away with pretending to swear to do their duty to God. I suspect that such a measure would decimate the ranks. The whole enterprise makes a big show of encouraging honesty, respect, honour and courage, then rewards those who ignore these ideals and excludes those like George who embody them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I thought this comment from the Scouts' spokesperson (in the article) was a bit odd: "Furthermore, Scouting accepts that as they grow into independent adults, some young people may question or doubt the existence of God as they develop their personal spiritual understanding." They seem to think that children automatically believe in God, but may question it as they get older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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