mikem8634 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 This is the criterea for the scouts= http://www.scouts.org.uk/documents/POR_Sept%202012_chapter1.pdf They cater for all faiths as stated in rule 1.1. Rule 1.1: Variations to the wording of the Promises a. Scouting is open to all faiths and must therefore take account of the different religious obligations of its Members while upholding the essential spirit of the Promise Bit of a spanner in the works? Atheism is accepted within some religious and spiritual belief systems, including Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Neopagan movements[19] such as Wicca,[20] and nontheistic religions. Jainism and some forms of Buddhism do not advocate belief in gods,[21] whereas Hinduism holds atheism to be valid, but some schools view the path of an atheist to be difficult to follow in matters of spirituality.[22] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism ^ Chakravarti, Sitansu (1991). Hinduism, a way of life. Motilal Banarsidass Publ.. p. 71. ISBN 978-81-208-0899-7. Retrieved 2011-04-09. "According to Hinduism, the path of the atheist is very difficult to follow in matters of spirituality, though it is a valid one." http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J_-rASTgw8wC&pg=PA71&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false I get the impression the Scouting movement may not have quite thought this one through properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmaximus Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Rule 1.1: Variations to the wording of the Promises a. Scouting is open to all faiths and must therefore take account of the different religious obligations of its Members while upholding the essential spirit of the Promise Bit of a spanner in the works? Atheism is accepted within some religious and spiritual belief systems, including Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Neopagan movements[19] such as Wicca,[20] and nontheistic religions. Jainism and some forms of Buddhism do not advocate belief in gods,[21] whereas Hinduism holds atheism to be valid, but some schools view the path of an atheist to be difficult to follow in matters of spirituality.[22] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism ^ Chakravarti, Sitansu (1991). Hinduism, a way of life. Motilal Banarsidass Publ.. p. 71. ISBN 978-81-208-0899-7. Retrieved 2011-04-09. "According to Hinduism, the path of the atheist is very difficult to follow in matters of spirituality, though it is a valid one." http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J_-rASTgw8wC&pg=PA71&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false I get the impression the Scouting movement may not have quite thought this one through properly. I posted this which is in mafya's link, several pages ago. In the case of Beaver Scouts, Cub Scouts and Scouts the decision as to which permitted form of wording should be used in any particular case will be made by the Group Scout Leader in consultation with the parents of the young person concerned. What to replace the word God with is up to each scout group, we changed it to country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanerothyme Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Because he's using insincere reasons to deceive people that he believes in god. As you admitted, he knows it to be a "lie", but he goes along with it anyway, presumably with a wry smile or with his fingers crossed behind his back. He's deceiving no-one, he isn't lying and you didn't read what my post said, just what you thought it said. The 11 year old George Pratt is above this sophistry. Whilst I accept that your son's attitude is the most common, and it is what I would have done had I not believed in God during my time in the Cubs and Scouts, I now think that George Pratt's attitude is admirable. If only it was his, I think it's his Dad's attitude, who has built up a head of atheistic righteous steam. I bet the boy just wants to go camping with his mates. As RootsBooster logically shows, an atheist that wants to be a part of the scouting movement has two choices. Either lie, or naff off. How can you lie when making a pledge - it's not a statement or assertion, it's a promise. If you take god to be a null concept, as he does, then pledging duty to a null concept is not a lie, it's just a null pledge. It seems that the scouting movement cannot make room for George Pratt or the increasing numbers of young people who cannot, in good conscience, swear that they are believers. Where does it say that scouts have to swear that they are believers? Quote me happy please! I will stand corrected if they do repeat the creed at scouts, but to the best of my knowledge they don't. Because the kid is using poor logic and deliberate, but hidden, misinterpretation to mislead others. Even if he was, that wouldn't be sophistry. But he is deceiving no-one. I would like to see if you can actually identify the "poor logic" in his thinking. I bet you can't. Likewise, can you identify the "deliberate hidden misinterpretation". I'm proud to say my 11 year old could think you lot under the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I posted this which is in mafya's link, several pages ago. What to replace the word God with is up to each scout group, we changed it to country. That's good but the Scout group in question insisted that he would have to make the promise to about a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgksheff Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 That's good but the Scout group in question insisted that he would have to make the promise to a god. No. They did not. You appear to have a problem with English comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altus Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 easter? christmas ? all hallows eve ? god bless our queen , ithought we were a christian nation ? at least the rest of the world does , dont they ? Stop trying to derail the thread into discussions about the real origins of christian festivals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janie48 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Stop trying to derail the thread into discussions about the real origins of christian festivals. Quite right, discussing Christian festivals adapted from our Pagan ancestors has nothing to do with the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Rule 1.1: Variations to the wording of the Promises a. Scouting is open to all faiths and must therefore take account of the different religious obligations of its Members while upholding the essential spirit of the Promise Bit of a spanner in the works? Atheism is accepted within some religious and spiritual belief systems, including Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Neopagan movements[19] such as Wicca,[20] and nontheistic religions. Jainism and some forms of Buddhism do not advocate belief in gods,[21] whereas Hinduism holds atheism to be valid, but some schools view the path of an atheist to be difficult to follow in matters of spirituality.[22] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism ^ Chakravarti, Sitansu (1991). Hinduism, a way of life. Motilal Banarsidass Publ.. p. 71. ISBN 978-81-208-0899-7. Retrieved 2011-04-09. "According to Hinduism, the path of the atheist is very difficult to follow in matters of spirituality, though it is a valid one." http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J_-rASTgw8wC&pg=PA71&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false I get the impression the Scouting movement may not have quite thought this one through properly. I posted this which is in mafya's link, several pages ago. What to replace the word God with is up to each scout group, we changed it to country. The point I was trying to make was that according to the wiki-based quote above it may be unusual but it is possible to be a Buddhist (to cite one of the examples) and an atheist. I've got to admit that it seems to be quite a dichotomous concept but try Googling Atheism in religion and you'll see a fair bit about it. How would the scouts handle that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irenewilde Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 It has infuriated me today that a young boy has been refused from joining the scouts because he is athiest.Now all his mates are going camping without him.As a child this would have been a severe punishment for me as my single parent dad couldnt afford holidays and camping with the scouts were my only breaks which were fantastic. ! There are plenty of other young people's organisations he can join but Scouts, Guides etc. have always had a reference to God in their promises and long may it continue. Religion is being sidelined enough as it is. They take part in church parades too at various times of the year - Mothering Sunday, Remembrance Day etc. And incidentally, I'd be *very* suprised if the camping holiday is free. We have always paid for these activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheff_Josh Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 only god can judge me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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