Atheists under attack

[Tradescanthia]

That would be great if the atheists already did this. Sadly they spend most of their time moaning about religion and God more than a believer does!

 

:hihi: This I find very true. I am a believer, I dont follow any particular church but I like old churches, the architecture, the tranquility etc. I can never understand atheists. They know for sure there is no God. I dont, I just like to think there is. Its been a comfort thru' some VERY difficult times. If I was truly atheist I wouldn't even bother to think about God at all

Put the Jehovas mob and the Islamics together with the atheists, it would be pure entertainment.

[RootsBooster]

I can never understand atheists. They know for sure there is no God.

I'm an atheist and I don't know for sure that there is no God.

I don't even believe that there is no God.

I just don't have a belief in God.

If I was truly atheist I wouldn't even bother to think about God at all

I don't, many don't.

[Phanerothyme]

Go on then, let's see if your interpretation of this is as odd as the last one (where you said that the question of God's existence was introduced by the Scouts)...

 

It's a pledge to oneself and the others present. You've read it maybe a dozen times and quoted it in your posts at least once. I'm amazed you don't understand it.

 

Actually, that last sentence is a lie.

 

I pledge to tell the truth in future. (Not that I believe in "truth" per se, but you get the drift, I'm sure - what must be obvious is that I'm not pledging this to "truth" I'm pledging it to you and everyone else reading.)

[mikem8634]

Not in the strictest sense.

 

I would class myself as an 'atheist' but it's not as cut and dry as you're making out.

 

Buddhism is generally thought of as an Atheistic religion because it is generally accepted that there is no absolute teaching of a 'creator' God.

 

There are however, most definately 'Gods', but they are seen as impermanent beings subject to the same 'forces' as humans and animals.

 

Even the idea of no creator God is not cut and dry, some of the Mahayana traditions (which include Tibetan and Zen Buddhism) accept the idea of the Trikaya doctrine, without getting into it too heavily each of us has a triple aspect, the most 'coarse' being the human form and the most subtle the 'Buddha' form, which is often related to God - in Vajrayana (a sub school of the Mahayana) there is the idea of the primordial (or Adi) Buddha - which for all intents and purposes can be seen as a concious 'God'.

 

I don't accept any of the above Mahayana concepts but they are certainly present throughout Mahayana Buddhism.

 

As for Hinduism I've never come across a Hindu anywhere - of any school - that doesn't most definately believe in God - a Hindu without belief in God, although not impossible, is a very, very niche variety indeed.

 

 

 

Does not negate God - it only negate the kind of 'God' present in the Jesus of Christianity - there is even a passage (I think it's in the anguttara nikaya) where the Buddha states that it's not the belief in God that is at fault but the belief in a God that saves you when there is no personal effort taking place.

 

In short - Hinduism, Islam and Sikhism (not sure about Judaism) at least are religions that don't automatically 'save' you just because of your belief - there has to be personal effort - The Buddha is saying the same thing (and does so on every one of the few occasions he mentions God) - mere 'faith', without appropriate action is pointless, and is not appropriate for the wise.

 

 

 

The Buddha never denied God, nor did he confirm God - he mentioned a creator God a few times but never in such a way as to confirm or deny his belief in one, he put the 'question' of God down altogether, deeming it a detriment (literally a distraction) to the task at hand.

 

 

 

Did he? I think you may have misunderstood the line quoted here from the dhammapada

 

He is repeating here what I outlined above, that putting your 'faith' in these things without personal effort is futile - it is for this reason that these are not a secure refuge - most of his teachings are around correct personal effort - the whole driving force of kamma is will/action, he is aware that all action is fabrication, even good action (or skilfull action), but even on the religious path some action has to be present - that's why he emphasises cultivating skilfull action while 'dropping' unskilfull action.

 

He doesn't say fear produces the religious impulse, he says fear produces 'empty' or unskilfull or bad (or whatever other word you may wish to use) religious impulse - ie; impulse with no hope of changing your situation, for want of a better analogy he is saying if a man comes running at you with a knife sitting in a corner praying wont help you - the skilfull course of action is to 'act' - again, the only present day religion I'm aware of that doesn't contain this idea are those branches of Christianity that merely say 'Give yourself to Christ and you will be saved' - it is this kind of 'empty' 'religious impulse' that he was warning against.

 

 

 

That's what I just said

 

 

 

So could my children (if they chose to be Buddhist) become scouts or not?

 

Great post - just for the record everything in my posts 111 and 122 is quoted from Wiki or the BBC I didn't offer any opinion on or interpretation of the subject as I'm on very fresh ground here (I've put some quotation marks in now to make it a little clearer).

 

Other than questioning how the scouts may find it troublesome regarding their pledge I was just putting it out there for discussion.

 

I bow to your clear knowledge of and feel for the subject and thoroughly enjoyed the info - thanks.

 

Trust me, the last thing I think it is is cut and dried. Like I said I sense this kind of complexity could make a scout leader's head explode. There is great philosophical subtlety at work here and I understand that to label Buddhism as a strictly atheistic (or as some suggest nontheistic) religion is a fairly esoteric stance but the notion does have relevance in this debate as it is a legitimate state of spirituality that the Scout constitution does not seem to cater for.

 

By the way I was also very surprised by the Hindu reference (once again Wiki not me) and have found nothing so far to substantiate the claim (inherent Wiki problem!)

 

So could my children (if they chose to be Buddhist) become scouts or not? In answer to that... I honestly don't have a clue.

[EbonyBranch]

He's deceiving no-one, he isn't lying and you didn't read what my post said, just what you thought it said.

 

How can you lie when making a pledge - it's not a statement or assertion, it's a promise. If you take god to be a null concept, as he does, then pledging duty to a null concept is not a lie, it's just a null pledge.

 

Even if he was, that wouldn't be sophistry. But he is deceiving no-one. I would like to see if you can actually identify the "poor logic" in his thinking. I bet you can't. Likewise, can you identify the "deliberate hidden misinterpretation".

 

I'm proud to say my 11 year old could think you lot under the table.

 

...as he explained to me: it's only a "lie" if you do believe in god and don't mean it. If you don't believe in God, then pledging to do your duty to a non-existent deity is not the same as claiming you believe in a god. It's just repeating some meaningless word on the piece of paper. A small price to pay for all the fun to be had in the scouting movement.

 

God is not a meaningless word. The implication of swearing to do your duty to a God is that you believe in it. The premises of his argument are wrong, and his reasoning is specious, but the whole argument sounds superficially convincing.

 

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to explain this to you; I'm pretty sure you know it already and just don't want to admit it. I notice you only clutched at the straw of challenging my use of the term 'sophistry'. Presumably, you agree that your kid's approach is disingenuous, cynical, etc.

[Tradescanthia]

I'm an atheist and I don't know for sure that there is no God.

I don't even believe that there is no God.

I just don't have a belief in God.

 

I don't, many don't.

 

I would regard you as agnostic, not atheist. You are not convinced enough to believe fully either way. You are not a million miles away from my way of thinking. I just find it comforting to believe. I dont argue with the total atheist, he is as loony as the most religious fundamentalist. I think, in truth, most of us arent sure, so we dont rule anything out.

[PaliRichard]

Great post - just for the record everything in my posts 111 and 122 is quoted from Wiki or the BBC I didn't offer any opinion on or interpretation of the subject as I'm on very fresh ground here (I've put some quotation marks in now to make it a little clearer).[/Quote]

 

Yes I know, I was aware that you were using wiki quotes - your original post did make that clear.

 

Other than questioning how the scouts may find it troublesome regarding their pledge I was just putting it out there for discussion[/Quote]

 

I know.

 

I bow to your clear knowledge of and feel for the subject and thoroughly enjoyed the info - thanks[/Quote]

 

I'm not sure that 'clear knowledge' is accurate - let's say experience from having been a practising Buddhist for a long time, I've made plenty of mistakes

 

I'm glad you enjoyed it though.

 

Trust me, the last thing I think it is is cut and dried[/Quote]

 

Let me try to explain something here.

 

I tend to be, forthright shall we say in my posts, they tend to be long and that's because I try to include alot of information, both gross and subtle in them. Sometimes this is picked upon, sometimes it is missed. Usually when it's missed there directness comes across as aggressiveness - this is rarely my intention.

 

A poster in a recent thread (one who I have to say I respect the views of greatly) asked me why I always agreed with him but disagreed with him at the same time - this is because I try to look at things in the same multi faceted way that I try to post things, my comment about your post being 'cut and dried' was only one of the levels I was looking at it - I apologise for not making this clearer - I tend to forget people are usually trying to make a point and probably don't realise that in doing so they have indirectly brought other issues to my attention (not a criticism btw).

 

Like I said I sense this kind of complexity could make a scout leader's head explode. There is great philosophical subtlety at work here and I understand that to label Buddhism as a strictly atheistic (or as some suggest nontheistic) religion is a fairly esoteric stance but the notion does have relevance in this debate as it is a legitimate state of spirituality that the Scout constitution does not seem to cater for[/Quote]

 

You are quite correct - I am often accused of putting 'my own meaning' or only taking my own interpretation into account on some religious issues - it is because of the philosophical subtlety of religion in general that I do this - I try to make quite clear the specific use of certain words in relevance to the conversation - again this is sometimes lost on other forum users!

 

By the way I was also very surprised by the Hindu reference (once again Wiki not me) and have found nothing so far to substantiate the claim (inherent Wiki problem!)[/Quote]

 

So was I, that's why I mentioned it - God is everything (literally) in Hinduism so taking 'him' out of the equation seems quite literally self defeating.

 

So could my children (if they chose to be Buddhist) become scouts or not? In answer to that... I honestly don't have a clue.

 

Ah well, maybe worth finding out as I have a little boy just a couple of months away from leaving the departure lounge

[EbonyBranch]

:hihi: This I find very true. I am a believer, I dont follow any particular church but I like old churches, the architecture, the tranquility etc. I can never understand atheists. They know for sure there is no God. I dont, I just like to think there is. Its been a comfort thru' some VERY difficult times. If I was truly atheist I wouldn't even bother to think about God at all

Put the Jehovas mob and the Islamics together with the atheists, it would be pure entertainment.

 

An atheist simply lacks belief in a God or gods. That's it. There are atheists who go further and positively believe that there are no gods, but that position is hard to justify unless you focus on every individual God belief and refute it.

 

I believe that none of the gods described to me so far actually exist, because they're incoherent or self-contradictory.

 

Atheism has nothing to do with knowledge, by the way. I am an agnostic atheist; I lack belief in gods, but I don't know that there are no gods. Richard Dawkins also describes himself this way.

[RootsBooster]

It's a pledge to oneself and the others present. You've read it maybe a dozen times and quoted it in your posts at least once. I'm amazed you don't understand it.

 

Actually, that last sentence is a lie.

 

I pledge to tell the truth in future. (Not that I believe in "truth" per se, but you get the drift, I'm sure - what must be obvious is that I'm not pledging this to "truth" I'm pledging it to you and everyone else reading.)

What you're saying doesn't disagree with what I said (apart from you keep using the word "pledge" whereas I use the Scouts' own term "promise").

 

The question was aimed at cgksheff because he disagrees that the Scouts group in question require the kid to make the promise of "duty to God".

That's good but the Scout group in question insisted that he would have to make the promise to a god.

 

No. They did not.

 

You appear to have a problem with English comprehension.

 

EDIT: Ah, I see where you're both nitpicking, I said "promise to a god" when I should have wrote "promise about a god". I will go back and correct my awful mistake.

[RootsBooster]

So, the kid still has to make a promise that he has no intention of keeping. This is dishonest and means he cannot be a scout (according to Baden Powell's Scout law).

 

Gods may not exist but the duties he is expected to carry out do exist, such as the prayer and worship outlined in the Scoutbase.org and also the "discovery" of the need for prayer and worship.