redwhine Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Look what's just popped into my in tray... http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/10/18/boy-scouts-perversion-files-set-to-be-released/ Coincidence, much. (I wonder what happened to all the scout leaders concerned. I'm sure the pope would've found jobs for them as priests. His kind of guys.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Look what's just popped into my in tray... http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/10/18/boy-scouts-perversion-files-set-to-be-released/ Coincidence, much. (I wonder what happened to all the scout leaders concerned. I'm sure the pope would've found jobs for them as priests. His kind of guys.) I don't know why you used an American example of this when you could have just as easily used an example of it happening in th UK. Not that either would have anything to do with atheists wanting to join the Scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmaximus Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 The easiest way round all this fuss is to call your dog/pet GOD and your duty to GOD would be feeding, watering and exercising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Then easy enough for you to find the answers. The question was asked if Buddhists can join the Scout Association. The answer is "Yes". The Scout Promise is adjusted to suit their faith. Cop out. You said the scouts would ask the Buddhists to do their duty by their dhamma. I asked you two specific questions based on your assertion, here they are again; 1. What you mean by they are asked to do their duty in line with the dhamma - because to me that doesn't really make sense, and 2. What happens if that duty is unskilful in the eyes of the dhamma - what if it is seen as detrimental to the Buddhist path. I'm asking you, as it was specifically you who told me, in fact jumped in to tell me, what they would have to swear by - so I'm specifically asking you these questions. If you don't know that's fine, and fair enough, but don't just try to sidestep it, either answer or tell me you don't know the answer - I'm not trying to trip you up merely asking questions based on an assertion you made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 He's deceiving no-one, he isn't lying and you didn't read what my post said, just what you thought it said. If only it was his, I think it's his Dad's attitude, who has built up a head of atheistic righteous steam. I bet the boy just wants to go camping with his mates. How can you lie when making a pledge - it's not a statement or assertion, it's a promise. If you take god to be a null concept, as he does, then pledging duty to a null concept is not a lie, it's just a null pledge. Where does it say that scouts have to swear that they are believers? Quote me happy please! I will stand corrected if they do repeat the creed at scouts, but to the best of my knowledge they don't. Even if he was, that wouldn't be sophistry. But he is deceiving no-one. I would like to see if you can actually identify the "poor logic" in his thinking. I bet you can't. Likewise, can you identify the "deliberate hidden misinterpretation". I'm proud to say my 11 year old could think you lot under the table. I’ll assume that your last sentence is a compliment about your son’s intellect, rather than an insult directed at EbonyBranch, myself and others. It certainly does take some intellect to apply the sophistry that your son and cgksheff are admitting to in this matter, but sophistry is precisely what it is. As you say in another post "it’s a pledge to oneself and the others present". It’s the others that is important. It doesn't matter if cgksheff thinks to himself that duty equates to no duty, or if your son thinks that pledging duty to a non-existent deity is meaningless, it is still a lie to the others present and the scouting organisation that have made it quite clear what the pledge means to them. I have admitted that I would probably have done the same thing as your son when I was in the Cubs and Scouts, but I believed in God at the time so cannot be sure. I cannot be too critical of people who lie, and ignore the pledge, to join this organisation. What I am convinced of is that George Pratt can hold his head up high with the integrity he has shown. It’s a shame that the scouting organisation cannot accommodate young people like him, whilst they can accommodate people that are prepared to lie. Of course the scouting organisation is perfectly entitled to be a religious organisation if it wants to be, and enforce respect for gods, what it cannot do is also claim “all inclusiveness” and “scouting for all” and not lie as well. Society needs more people with the integrity shown by George Pratt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 As much as I'd like the Scouts to allow people to join without making a promise about God/s, they're perfectly entitled to their membership criteria as it stands (as far as I'm aware). Like I said earlier, it's no more discriminating than the Church saying you have to believe in God and follow Jesus' teachings in order to be a Christian. As for the thread title, there were no atheists under attack. Agreed, and the thread title is hyperbole nonsense. But the hypocrisy of the scouting organisation is worth discussion. It is entitled to discriminate if they want, and they are exempt from discrimination laws, but to carry the motto "scouting for all" is a deceit if they do, and they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janie48 Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I don't assume all Christians are the same, nor are all atheists. Assuming that an entire massive group of individuals are all the same just because they have one or two beliefs in common is a pretty flawed philosophy. Identical twins aren't even the same and to judge them as such would be, I'm sure, very insulting. I am an atheist yet I also enjoy the architecture and tranquillity of churches. I have come to atheism from a deeply Catholic upbringing and all of that early learning does not just evaporate once you realise that things don't fit for you. I don't believe in deities but I think about God all the time because the philosophy involved is fascinating. I am deeply set against aggression and discrimination in the name of religion not because I am anti-religion but because I am against aggression and discrimination. I am more than happy for people to worship (or not) in any peaceful way they so desire. I am sure of very little because claiming you know everything about anything is a dangerous thing to do. To use a quote I have used elsewhere on this forum and others - The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell Consistent questioning of oneself is a thing to be encouraged as it combats smugness, arrogance and complacency and underpins learning, development and philosophical evolution. Therefore, atheists contemplating a god that they deny exists can be a positive thing. Agree with much of this post except for the Bertrand Russell quote,that is when it applies to religion,because religious belief is not a measure of intelligence, and ultimately relies more on faith then fact.The deeper the faith the person has, the less need they have to seek evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwhine Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Look what's just popped into my in tray... http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/10/18/boy-scouts-perversion-files-set-to-be-released/ Coincidence, much. (I wonder what happened to all the scout leaders concerned. I'm sure the pope would've found jobs for them as priests. His kind of guys.) I don't know why you used an American example of this when you could have just as easily used an example of it happening in th UK. ...because an example from the U.K. had not dropped into my in tray (...it was the most recent addition to my Facebook timeline...) coincidentally just as I became aware of this thread. I thought that that was clear from my post ^^^^. Not that either would have anything to do with atheists wanting to join the Scouts. So what? As far as I can see, the subject of the thread is not about atheists wanting to join the scouts, it's about a boy being refused membership of the boy scouts due to their discriminatory admission policy. Strikes me, when the two are put together, he could have had a narrow escape! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Agree with much of this post except for the Bertrand Russell quote,that is when it applies to religion,because religious belief is not a measure of intelligence, and ultimately relies more on faith then fact.The deeper the faith the person has, the less need they have to seek evidence. Good point. Faith is a different matter. One of my favourite poets is R.S. Thomas, a Welsh poet and Anglican priest, who writes about kneeling in front of the cross with no evidence before him and doubt in his mind. His point when he writes 'the meaning is in the waiting' is that overcoming the presence of doubt makes faith stronger and the act of faith itself negates the need for evidence. My use of the Bertrand Russell quote was simply to point out why I try to keep an open mind and consistently question myself not to suggest faith is enacted by the stupid or the cocksure. Hope that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janie48 Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Good point. Faith is a different matter. One of my favourite poets is R.S. Thomas, a Welsh poet and Anglican priest, who writes about kneeling in front of the cross with no evidence before him and doubt in his mind. His point when he writes 'the meaning is in the waiting' is that overcoming the presence of doubt makes faith stronger and the act of faith itself negates the need for evidence. My use of the Bertrand Russell quote was simply to point out why I try to keep an open mind and consistently question myself not to suggest faith is enacted by stupid or the cocksure. Hope that makes sense. Yes it does make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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