Atheists under attack

[mikem8634]

Mikem, I'll assume there are many gods - and numerous other things like fairies, etc - that you don't believe in. Likewise, I guess there are many things you do not do; like not[a] collecting stamps. So now you've aligned yourself with the fundamental tenets of a[insert numerous gods, etc here], how does that inform your interaction in the same way that the religious are informed by their faith - or how does not collection stamps[astampism] make you interact with stamps in the same way a stamp collector would?

 

I think that our world has been impacted upon massively through it's history by religion. To a certain degree belief in god has played a huge part in shaping the world, both geographically and philosophically, and continues to do so today.

 

I can't say the same for stamp collecting.

 

So, to believe there is no god and to live accordingly effects the way I interact with a world so intertwined with religion.

 

I realise you are making a philosophical point with the stamp analogy but I feel I could only answer your question honestly if we lived in a world made of stamps.

 

 

Perhaps another way of putting what I'm getting at is could Richard Dawkins believe everything else he believes and believe in god? For me his atheism is intertwined with his scientific and social views in much the same way mine is. It doesn't matter whether he built his world view on a foundation of atheism or arrived at it via other intellectual pursuits as, for me, atheism came first (around 11 or 12) and every other significant philosophical process that has made me who I am has been filtered through it.

 

Perhaps a further way still would be to suggest that in my worldview it is significant that god does not exist and in yours it is simply irrelevant. Either way we are both still atheists.

[mikem8634]

So how do you feel my non-belief affects my life?

 

First of all, it depends on whether you have come to atheism from religion or have never had any belief. If you have previously had faith, as an awful lot of us do (at least as children as I did) then to drop it or replace it is a significant, life altering change.

 

Another area in which atheism can effect your life could include the formation of opinions. For example, conflict in the Middle East, the wealth of the Catholic church, abortion and George Bush are all important issues in the world and belief or non-belief in god, I'm sure, impacts upon where many people place themselves in relation to those issues.

 

Another example could be your wedding, funeral. Your non-belief could very well dictate where, how and even if you have those ceremonies.

 

I just feel it creeps in everywhere without even being noticed sometimes.

[Ryedo40]

Perhaps another way of putting what I'm getting at is could Richard Dawkins believe everything else he believes and believe in god?

 

I'd say yes, he pretty much could. The reason I say that is because, just as not all atheists think alike, neither do theists. Theists can accept evolution while holding beliefs in a god. Theists also differ with each other on moral issues, just as atheists differ on moral issues. Many of us agree on certain moral issues whether we believe in a god or not. I'd also say that most atheists and theists[especially those that don't adhere to religious tenets] use reason, logic, life experience & empathy to arrive at their moral or ethical decisions and god(or no god) never comes into the picture.

[mikem8634]

I'd say yes, he pretty much could. The reason I say that is because, just as not all atheists think alike, neither do theists. Theists can accept evolution while holding beliefs in a god. Theists also differ with each other on moral issues, just as atheists differ on moral issues. Many of us agree on certain moral issues whether we believe in a god or not. I'd also say that most atheists and theists[especially those that don't adhere to religious tenets] use reason, logic, life experience & empathy to arrive at their moral or ethical decisions and god(or no god) never comes into the picture.

 

Excellent post, got to agree with you.

 

Regarding my Dawkins example yes, indeed he could, but it could also be the case that he thinks the way he does because he's an atheist - which is pretty much the case for me.

[Ryedo40]

Excellent post, got to agree with you.

 

Regarding my Dawkins example yes, indeed he could, but it could also be the case that he thinks the way he does because he's an atheist - which is pretty much the case for me.

 

Well, I'm guessing it is his pursuit of knowledge and the use of reason, logic, life experience - and maybe even his empathy - that led him to atheism. So maybe it's not his so much his atheism that makes him think the way he does, but his use of knowledge, reason, logic, life experience and empathy.

 

I think that's pretty much the case for me.

[mikem8634]

Didn't know this - quite surprising - not sure what the scouts would make of this -

 

 

 

A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate’s rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.

 

“Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being,” the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.

 

The court decided the inmate’s First Amendment rights were violated because the prison refused to allow him to create a study group for atheists.

 

Brian Fahling, senior trial attorney for the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, called the court’s ruling “a sort of Alice in Wonderland jurisprudence.”

 

“Up is down, and atheism, the antithesis of religion, is religion,” said Fahling.

 

The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described “secular humanism” as a religion.

 

Fahling said today’s ruling was “further evidence of the incoherence of Establishment Clause jurisprudence.”

 

“It is difficult not to be somewhat jaundiced about our courts when they take clauses especially designed to protect religion from the state and turn them on their head by giving protective cover to a belief system, that, by every known definition other than the courts’ is not a religion, while simultaneously declaring public expressions of true religious faith to be prohibited,” Fahling said.

 

http://www.wnd.com/2005/08/31895/

[mikem8634]

Well, I'm guessing it is his pursuit of knowledge and the use of reason, logic, life experience - and maybe even his empathy - that led him to atheism. So maybe it's not his so much his atheism that makes him think the way he does, but his use of knowledge, reason, logic, life experience and empathy.

 

I think that's pretty much the case for me.

 

Fair enough.

[Ryedo40]

Fair enough.

 

Just so you know, I'm not necessarily saying an atheist stance can't influence some of the decisions an atheist might make, I just disagree with what you said here:

 

Once you align yourself to the fundamental tenets of atheism it then informs your interaction with everything in the same way that the religious are informed by their faith.

 

For one, I'm not sure what you mean by tenets of atheism. And I also don't see how my atheism informs me in the same way that the religious are informed by their faith. The religious, after all, hold faith[an intellectually dishonest position] in the teachings or claims made by their religion(even when evidence shows those claims are wrong). They practice and try to live by the standards(sometimes bad or silly) set by those who invented the religion. So in many ways they are sheep following someone else's tenets.

 

An example of the above might be that some religions dictate you can't work on a certain day. Those informed by the tenets of their religion aren't arriving at the decision to not work on a certain day in the same way an atheist would.

[quisquose]

First of all, it depends on whether you have come to atheism from religion or have never had any belief. If you have previously had faith, as an awful lot of us do (at least as children as I did) then to drop it or replace it is a significant, life altering change.

 

Another area in which atheism can effect your life could include the formation of opinions. For example, conflict in the Middle East, the wealth of the Catholic church, abortion and George Bush are all important issues in the world and belief or non-belief in god, I'm sure, impacts upon where many people place themselves in relation to those issues.

 

Another example could be your wedding, funeral. Your non-belief could very well dictate where, how and even if you have those ceremonies.

 

I just feel it creeps in everywhere without even being noticed sometimes.

 

I think you're confusing atheism with criticism of religion, sometimes confusingly called anti-theism.

 

Theism and atheism have no doctrines or moral guidelines, they are just positions held with respect to a single question. Belief, or lack of, in a deity alone motivates nothing. Theism and atheism are not religions.

 

Some of the opinions you mention aren't motivated by atheism, but by something else, a dislike of religion (which I share), or humanism.

 

If people want to believe in god let them. If it makes them feel good, fine. As long as it stays out of politics and other people’s lives, let them get on with it. I have no problem with theism alone. Unfortunately religion doesn't stay out of other people's lives, and it is this aspect that I am critical of irrespective of my atheism.

[quisquose]

Typing my previous post has made me consider the subject of this thread, and the situation that George Pratt finds himself in.

 

When I was a scout there was the pledge to "God and the Queen", and I think if I had been an atheist at the time I could have ignored it like cgksheff and Phanerothyme's son do. I invoke God's name rather frequently without believing in him, so why not just say the pledge in the same manner?

 

Well, as some vague theistic concept I think I could ignore it. I'm agnostic to such a concept. The problem is, that in their efforts to be "all inclusive" they have actually turned the pledge into a specifically religious concept that excludes the non-religious.

 

Inserting 11 variations to the wording of the Promises to pander to various religious demands has made the Scouting Association less inclusive, not more. Religion poisons everything.