Ryedo40 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Is that comment designed to make me feel some kind of shame for not being apologetic enough for the situation regarding the child,or could it possibly not be about the boy at all and just a rather subtle personal attack on me and all christians? because what i sense reading through this thread is an undercurrent of hostility with just another opportunity to direct angry feelings and create further divisions between christians and atheists. Janie, I think you know as well as I do that most Christians would be just as disgusted as I am that the scouts would discriminate against a child. I think they would equally be as disgusted at those who try to justify or encourage that discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EbonyBranch Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I agree that it's a worthy organisation, which is why it is so important to establish a fair attitude to the "inclusiveness" that Bear Grylls says he is so proud of. You attempts to pull the linguistic wool over my eyes has failed. This is from the document linked to in their weasel response to the story: Basically atheists can either lie or naff off. The scouting organisation needs to be inclusive as claimed, or drop all pretence of it and drop the "scouting for all" motto. Perhaps by way of a compromise, atheists could swear to do their noodly duty to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I agree that in a largely secular and mostly atheist society (interesting how an earlier poster referred to the 2000 census religious affiliation data and ignored the 2010 results) that an organisation supposedly committed to teaching good, wholesome values like honesty, integrity, etc. actually instills cynicism and disingenousness from the start by expecting new members to lie about their religious beliefs. However you try to spin it, that is what the majority of 'christian' kids will be doing. Belief in gods is plummeting. The most recent census data underline this point. This kid who refused to lie has more integrity and grit than the rest of the scouting movement put together. In a few years, the movement (in Britain, at least) will be ashamed of this period in its history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 An amateur group of Islamic film makers have posted a video on YouTube which mocks Christianity and Jesus Christ It is believed to be so offensive that St Peters church in Shrewsbury have postponed their tea and cake morning until next Wednesday, and Dorothy Green from Margate has written in to Points of view You know that this is a thread about the Scouts, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janie48 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Janie, I think you know as well as I do that most Christians would be just as disgusted as I am that the scouts would discriminate against a child. I think they would equally be as disgusted at those who try to justify or encourage that discrimination. I'm not in favour of discrimination againsts anyone whatever impression i've given,but i'm not going to justify every remark i make just to satisfy others. What other Christians state is entirely their own business i'm not a spokesperson for others and i refuse to keep apologising for any other christian's actions past or present. Its not that i'm implying that events that go against Christian teachings should be overlooked,but is there ever anything that Christians get right ever reported,in my view there isn't,so is it any wonder that we are experiencing such contempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I was posting in reply to a post which the mods then deleted (it was a post by one of drones sock puppets), this made my post meaningless so I replaced it with dots. There is a minimum post content so you can't just leave it blank. jb Ah got you now. Thanks for the explanation I have seen it loads of times and always wondered. Great Nash quote by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I was a scout when I was a kid but other than the oath, I can't remember any activities/lessons/or talks involving anything about God, so I looked it up. From what I read, theism is a key part of scouting ( I never knew this)... The Principles of Scouting Scouting is based on three principles, which are expressed within the Beaver, Cub and Scout Promises: Duty to self; Duty to others; and Duty to God...... ........The three principles lead Members of the Scout Movement to believe that the world is a better place when people have an active religious faith. The Scout Promise On my honour I promise that I will do my best, to do my duty to God and to the Queen, to help other people and to keep the Scout Law. Duty to God: this is an obvious expression of duty to God and includes all faiths and beliefs recognised by The Scout Association. This can be replaced with alternative wording, such as ‘Dharma’ or ‘Allah’, which can better reflect the faith or belief of the individual making the Promise. So to me it doesn't seem that the Scouts are discriminating against atheists (technically) any more than a church would if it said that you had to believe in God and the teachings of Jesus to be a Christian. In practice though, it's a little sad that an atheist can't take part in scouting when (in my experience) they don't actually do much related to theism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I was a scout when I was a kid but other than the oath, I can't remember any activities/lessons/or talks involving anything about God, so I looked it up. From what I read, theism is a key part of scouting ( I never knew this)... So to me it doesn't seem that the Scouts are discriminating against atheists (technically) any more than a church would if it said that you had to believe in God and the teachings of Jesus to be a Christian. In practice though, it's a little sad that an atheist can't take part in scouting when (in my experience) they don't actually do much related to theism. RootsBooster you are be mistaken, just as I was. Your taking a too literal interpretation of those commands. According to cgksheff the word duty can also mean no duty, so there is no problem. The fact that in all the statements that the scouting organisation have made to excuse their discrimination of George Pratt, and others like him, there is not a single mention of this alternative view of the word duty just means that they are mistaken too. Now I have been put right in this matter I am just working on a plan to convince the employees that £20,000 is really £200,000 and that a fork-lift is also a Ferrari. I expect workforce morale to improve significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 RootsBooster you are be mistaken, just as I was. Your taking a too literal interpretation of those commands. According to cgksheff the word duty can also mean no duty, so there is no problem. The fact that in all the statements that the scouting organisation have made to excuse their discrimination of George Pratt, and others like him, there is not a single mention of this alternative view of the word duty just means that they are mistaken too. Now I have been put right in this matter I am just working on a plan to convince the employees that £20,000 is really £200,000 and that a fork-lift is also a Ferrari. I expect workforce morale to improve significantly. Indeed, the definition of the word "duty" does not include lack of duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgksheff Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 ........... According to cgksheff the word duty can also mean no duty, so there is no problem. ......... No need to put your own interpretations onto others. I say that you can have a wide interpretation of the word duty. The Association do not impose any devotion upon Scouts or Cubs. If one chooses to feel that their 'duty' to some 'god' is to carry on with their life as normal, they are free to do so. The Association do put a higher demand upon their Leaders, however. They are expected to acknowledge their "belief in a higher being". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanerothyme Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 He's free to start up his own scout movement of one. My boy, who doesn't believe in any god, or even of the possibility of one, who is of a similar age, had no worries about the pledge - as he explained to me: it's only a "lie" if you do believe in god and don't mean it. If you don't believe in God, then pledging to do your duty to a non-existent deity is not the same as claiming you believe in a god. It's just repeating some meaningless word on the piece of paper. A small price to pay for all the fun to be had in the scouting movement. This kid is clearly a little hard of thinking, which I expect is because his dad does most of it for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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