S10mainly Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Think it is safe to say that ones a loon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Your starting point would have to be that you accept the Bible as the word of God, and that the message contained in its pages in a plan for this world and how God will intervene in world events[/Quote] My question was how do you know. As the above is a belief and not knowledge then it wouldn't be much use as a starting point. Myself and others are always willing to talk[/Quote] With all respect your being willing to 'talk' consists of telling people what you think and when they at best challenge the viewpoint or even go as far as to provide evidence against what you're saying you claim they are being aggressive - it's hardly a basis for dialogue. There will be only a few who find this path[/Quote] Why? They laughed at noah but I bet they were banging on the door[/Quote] Depends where they were, as there is no evidence for a world wide flood I'm guessing there were many still laughing at him. The nations will make war with the Lamb (Israel) Not the UK or America so. The UK will not be part of the EU in a political sense The EU being a Catholic project. The whore ridding the beast (see the back of euro coins ) the detail is all there When they first signed the coal and iron agreement in Rome.,they said we are recreating the Holy Roman empire, the signs and symbols are all there in revelation and Daniel[/Quote] Is an interpretation (and a bit of a conspirecy theorists one at that), how do you know it's the right one? Prophesies are only a small part of Bible belief. A great many are fulfilled a few are left[/Quote] None are fulfilled - those that you have shown me in the past, as I have demonstrated previously usually rely on one of two criteria, that is that you ignore many facts that show they haven't been fulfilled and only acknowledge those things that appear to back up that fulfillment or that you take the prophesies and fit them into the event after it has occurred - for example a prediction about the second world war would be general and non specific so you couldn't pinpoint key places/events/people before it happened and only after it has occurred do you try to fit the prophesy around the events. The bible warned us that the wolves would very soon corrupt the gospel message and you only have to look at the history of the Roman church, then read in revelation drunk with the blood of the saints. The Vatican is forming closer and closers links with other church's and faiths and there are many Anglicans who opposed Israel. Putin best friend is the head of the Russian orthodox church. The world's problems are.centered on the middle east the nations are getting pulled in that direction ?? This is a wake up call It's not a wake up call, it's an interpretation of a text that doesn't include the answer to the question I asked - How do you know this prediction will happen, no other Biblical prophesy has been, what did your website claim, clearly, totally and 100% (or near enough - I can't remember without checking my notes) fulfilled so what makes you think this one will be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Wake up call.... So what does the bible predict will happen in the near future.. Many of these major changes in humans and world events have also been predicted by Islam can go into details. I would like to know what Christianity says... Please do, I would like to know what Islam says. I also wouldn't mind you responding to the points I have previously made to you that you seem to have overlooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 @ Borderline I'm guessing you're not going to try to answer my question then? Or the points I raised/questions I asked in #233. Why is it (this is a general question and not aimed at you specifically) that when people who want to make a point of saying the Bible says such and such or predicts such and such with such vigour that when that view is challenged they mysteriously try to change the subject or just down right go quiet? Why is it that those religious people who don't go making claims that science proves their faith or Bible (or scriptural) prophesy has been clearly proven are quite happy to talk openly about their faith yet those that do make such claims don't address criticism of those claims directly, or if they do address them do it in such a bizarre way that they sidestep the criticism altogether? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borderline Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 So if Jesus was raised from the dead, and God has the power to raise moses and David.....then The bible is true, and God exists, and his power is limitless Then Richard is wrong about everything He is a nice Guy but also the most wrongheaded personal iv met One question I would like to put is this Is there a connection between religion and intellect. I know many brilliant brains who don't sacrifice a once of logic but know with the bible is true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plain Talker Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 The nations will make war with the Lamb (Israel) No, Israel is not the Lamb. I don't know where you get that idea from. They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14 in Christian canon, the Lamb is Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borderline Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 No, Israel is not the Lamb. I don't know where you get that idea from. in Christian canon, the Lamb is Jesus. Who's feet will stand in which mountain? Jesus and his saints will be in Israel The church's who are drunk on the blood of the saints will make war with the lamb, I agree about Jesus being the lamb of God, but millions of bible study hour tell us more If don't believe the bible it matters little, if you do then it gets very interesting just what it could mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S10mainly Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Why do two Middle Eastern dark ages based religions get people so wound up? They are both patently founded on falsehoods and rely on coercion and "blind faith" to get people to follow them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plain Talker Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Who's feet will stand in which mountain? Jesus and his saints will be in Israel The church's who are drunk on the blood of the saints will make war with the lamb, I agree about Jesus being the lamb of God, but millions of bible study hour tell us more If don't believe the bible it matters little, if you do then it gets very interesting just what it could mean but Jesus isn't Israel.... I am in England, but being in England doesn't make me England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Part 1 (yes it is that long) So if Jesus was raised from the dead, and God has the power to raise moses and David.....then The bible is true, and God exists, and his power is limitless[/Quote] This is a strange mix of 'if's' and 'but's' to then draw the conclusion the Bible is true, and once more it relies soley on belief when my question was how do you 'know', not what do you believe. Before I get into this response let me clarify my position here. There are many Christians (indeed religious people) on these forums, while most are open about their faith they don't seek to try to insist that such and such proves that faith. I have a great respect for people's beliefs, this includes your own, we are all free to choose what we believe and I have no right (or wish) to question that belief. What I do have a right to question however, and this is what the whole thread is about, is claims made by people like you and hmraja that your respective texts hold 'proofs' of things that if only we come round to your way of seeing things we would understand. This is why I go into those claims, to see if they stand up, what you don't seem to get is that people who question so much would change their minds if that evidence you offer stood up to scrutiny, but rather than acknowledging that maybe the evidence you claim is not all it's cracked up to be you insist it's the closed mindedness of those doing the questioning. So 'if' Jesus came back from the dead (I'm avoiding the word 'raised' on purpose) how do we know that it was through the power of God and not some natural occurance - that is that he only appeared to be dead - it's not unheard of. So Jesus is back from the dead, we then conclude because of this God also has the power to raise Moses and David. We then conclude from this that the Bible is true. This is the first mistake, we have taken lot's of 'if's', which rely on 'evidence' that could very well be natural and not from God - that is, not evidence at all but an interpretation of an event based on belief - and concluded the Bible is true based on this. So really the 'evidence' has collapsed before it's even began, but we then take it further and say God exists and his power is limitless. How do you get, let's be generous, how do you get from God has the power to raise Jesus etc to his power is limitless? What in the 'evidence' you have proposed supports that power being limitless, even if God exists and has the power to raise the dead this in itself does not support the claim that his power is limitless - it merely supports the claim that he has the power to raise the dead. Then Richard is wrong about everything[/Quote] I may well be, I'm happy to admit that - but how do you draw that conclusion from what you have said so far? We haven't even established that the evidence you have given is enough to support your own assertions, much less that anything I believe is thus flawed. I haven't even made any 'claims' that can be said to be wrong, I've merely challenged your claims, it's interesting to note at this point that in that challenge I put that people making similar claims to yours have a habit of avoiding questions (I'll come back to this at the end with a chance for you to redeem yourself), and this response appears to once more side step the questions I asked you. He is a nice Guy but also the most wrongheaded personal iv met[/Quote] Why am I wrong headed (what does that even mean?) Is it because I disagree with you? Why would you call someone 'wrong headed' merely for disagreeing? I don't think you, or hmraja are 'wrong headed', I think you have both taken certain interpretations of the Biblical passages without really looking at all the angles, that is, it appears you have been told what the interpretation is and not really questioned what you have been told, I can't really see any other way in which you interpret the passages the way you do. But you both have the right to believe what you want, I repeat, I have no difficulty with your right to believe - it is the insistance that passages that really are quite unclear have specific meanings yet seem to avoid the difficulties people find with those 'meanings' that I have difficulty with. One question I would like to put is this Is there a connection between religion and intellect. I know many brilliant brains who don't sacrifice a once of logic but know with the bible is true The bold bit. What about the brilliant brains that are Muslim, or Hindu, or secular? See this is the flaw in your argument, if there is a connection between intellect and religion (which I cannot see personally) what your argument is saying is that either all religions (and secular belief systems) are true or none are. It is an exceptionally flawed position. How do these people you know 'know' the Bible is true? I will address your pm from the other day here too, it seems appropriate given the topic. While I don't wish to get into another 'private' back and forth argument with you not answering the questions I put to you I will give you the questions I had for you again so that you can put them to your friends if you wish (as you requested). Feel free to answer them on the thread, I have no wish to communicate with you privately and will not respond if you attempt to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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