mikem8634 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 What really constitutes Libertarianism is probably as open to academic debate as what really constitutes Socialism, Marxism, Capitalism, Communism etc. Your average party member, and to a further extent the voter, is going to be less interested in this academic debate, more motivated by the policies of the party and whether those policies fit with their own beliefs and what they want for the country and the future. Agreed, but surely UKIP itself has some definition of its own version of democratic libertarianism? I just can't seem to find it and was hoping for someone to point me in the right direction. I would hate to think it has just been opportunistically appropriated as a shiny label just because of its similarity to liberty and in the hopes that it will not be closely scrutinised. ---------- Post added 23-12-2012 at 17:31 ---------- A: even though the law could deem any number of things to be allowed (e.g. that one could marry an animal or a dead person [and, yes, some faiths allow this latter!]), a mere moment of thought should tell you that such deeming doesn't make sense. So to propose legislating 'gay marriage' is merely a sop to vocal complainants of inequality- maybe at the LDP's behest?- and Mr Cameron has to make the best of a bad job in agreeing to it. UKIP holds it to be wrong and has the courage to say so. Do you personally think same-sex marriage is wrong? If so, why is it wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wednesday1 Posted December 23, 2012 Author Share Posted December 23, 2012 A: even though the law could deem any number of things to be allowed (e.g. that one could marry an animal or a dead person [and, yes, some faiths allow this latter!]), a mere moment of thought should tell you that such deeming doesn't make sense. So to propose legislating 'gay marriage' is merely a sop to vocal complainants of inequality- maybe at the LDP's behest?- and Mr Cameron has to make the best of a bad job in agreeing to it. UKIP holds it to be wrong and has the courage to say so. I was referring to a point made earlier. I stated that evidence that UKIP were to the right of the ConDems was proven by Farages response to the 'Chancellors' autumn statement, you replied with: 'Nope. The Conservative Party is to the right of the Coalition, I agree, but UKIP's policies simply seek that money should not be impounded unnecessarily from taxpayers. Rather, reduce the tax burden and leave taxpayers at liberty to spend their own money. Liberty, you see...' I then asked how exactly UKIP planned to reduce the tax burden and you replied: 'By being liberty-supporters, neither left- nor right- wing'. I asked you if you could expand on this a little, you know tell us what exactly UKIP would cut or stop doing, especially if they are not to the right of the Tories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sibon Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I was referring to a point made earlier. I stated that evidence that UKIP were to the right of the ConDems was proven by Farages response to the 'Chancellors' autumn statement, you replied with: 'Nope. The Conservative Party is to the right of the Coalition, I agree, but UKIP's policies simply seek that money should not be impounded unnecessarily from taxpayers. Rather, reduce the tax burden and leave taxpayers at liberty to spend their own money. Liberty, you see...' I then asked how exactly UKIP planned to reduce the tax burden and you replied: 'By being liberty-supporters, neither left- nor right- wing'. I asked you if you could expand on this a little, you know tell us what exactly UKIP would cut or stop doing, especially if they are not to the right of the Tories. Some would say that a party that seeks to discriminate on grounds of sexuality or nationality. And one which proposes a huge increase in the size of our Armed Forces, was possibly a teensy weensy bit right wing. I'd be one of those, by the way:) They are certainly not "liberty supporters" as Jeffrey's post up there ^^^ illustrates perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenRivers Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 There is an explanation of their opposition to gay marriage on their website, and I think they have a good point. Legalisation of gay marriage, even if it doesn't apply to places of worship, would probably be challenged in the courts by religious gay people who want to force their places of worship into marrying them, and given the European Convention on Human Rights and the Strasbourg Court, it's likely they would be successful, so it is quite forseeable that legalisation of gay marriage at this moment in time (certainly before we can exit the EU and disregard the ECHR) would lead to a situation where places of worship are forced against their will and conscience and religious conviction to marry gay people, which if we're talking of liberty, does not respect their right to their beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeMaquis Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 There is an explanation of their opposition to gay marriage on their website, and I think they have a good point. Legalisation of gay marriage, even if it doesn't apply to places of worship, would probably be challenged in the courts by religious gay people who want to force their places of worship into marrying them, and given the European Convention on Human Rights and the Strasbourg Court, it's likely they would be successful, so it is quite forseeable that legalisation of gay marriage at this moment in time (certainly before we can exit the EU and disregard the ECHR) would lead to a situation where places of worship are forced against their will and conscience and religious conviction to marry gay people, which if we're talking of liberty, does not respect their right to their beliefs. In other words UKIP won't stand for equality because some other people won't stand for it either. But ton the other hand they could stand for equality because some other people stand for that too. But they choose to stand for inequality instead. Nothing to do with bigots in organised religion. Everything to do with bigots in UKIP. If we're talking of liberty UKIP does not the respect the rights to their beliefs of those wanting gay marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenRivers Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 In other words UKIP won't stand for equality because some other people won't stand for it either. But ton the other hand they could stand for equality because some other people stand for that too. But they choose to stand for inequality instead. Nothing to do with bigots in organised religion. Everything to do with bigots in UKIP. If we're talking of liberty UKIP does not the respect the rights to their beliefs of those wanting gay marriage. I don't think anybody is wanting to force places of worship against their own conscience to marry gays, but at least UKIP have had the forethought that it will probably be challenged under the ECHR with places of worship eventually forced against their will to marry gays. Perhaps if we were not subject to the ECHR, UKIP may support gay marriage, because then our laws allowing gay marriage but also allowing places of worship to opt out couldn't be challenged in Strasbourg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeMaquis Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I don't think anybody is wanting to force places of worship against their own conscience to marry gays, but at least UKIP have had the forethought that it will probably be challenged under the ECHR with places of worship eventually forced against their will to marry gays. Perhaps if we were not subject to the ECHR, UKIP may support gay marriage, because then our laws allowing gay marriage but also allowing places of worship to opt out couldn't be challenged in Strasbourg. Funny how UKIP fall back on the ECHR when it suits them. You're admitting that UKIP are so frightened of European legislation that they even cave into the hypothetical threat of it. What happened to steadfastly defending the UK from the European superstate? Of course we know that what you're claiming is rubbish. UKIP oppose gay marriage because they're a bunch of right-wing bigots. They oppose abortion for the same reason. They just hide behind silence or make cheap excuses instead of saying what they really think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sibon Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 . UKIP oppose gay marriage because they're a bunch of right-wing bigots. They oppose abortion for the same reason. They just hide behind silence or make cheap excuses instead of saying what they really think. I don't think that they are doing it for that reason alone. By taking this stance, they mop up lots of disaffected Tory votes. At least it has put to bed the libertarian claims. As for their reliance on the ECHR, that remains a laughable defence for a policy of intolerance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_W Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Strange how a thread started by the No1 resident Labourite about UKIP taking Tory votes has been turned into a Labourite attack on UKIP policy. Seems to me that as usual the resident Labourites are actually the ones who are concerned about UKIP getting an increase in voters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenRivers Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Funny how UKIP fall back on the ECHR when it suits them. You're admitting that UKIP are so frightened of European legislation that they even cave into the hypothetical threat of it. What happened to steadfastly defending the UK from the European superstate? Of course we know that what you're claiming is rubbish. UKIP oppose gay marriage because they're a bunch of right-wing bigots. They oppose abortion for the same reason. They just hide behind silence or make cheap excuses instead of saying what they really think. But the fact is we are subject to the ECHR, and UKIP are probably right about what is likely to happen. There are also Labour MPs opposed to gay marriage, are they "right wing bigots" too, or "left wing bigots"? I've not heard of UKIP opposing abortion, they don't have an abortion policy, so that's unsubstantiated speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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