Job offers - worth it? your thoughts please..

[indizine]

Well when you have found this golden employer who lets you do a competing (which means you sell what they sell) business in your own time, do tell us who it is!

 

Or has Google actually offered you a job?

 

You are plucking out of the air one really exceptional company that is by far not the norm and certainly not in the UK. They have sushi bars and spacehoppers to get around the building - are you seriously suggesting they are a typical employer?

 

And you may find in Google's employment contract tiny small print some wording to the effect that any work done is owned by them. Just like students at a university where any inventions created as a result of attending even when done in your own time, belong to the uni. Not saying all unis do this but one in Sheffield does, as do a fair few others.

 

Until you have seen a real employment contract belonging to Google, you can but only guess what they really do allow you to do.

 

And the majority will have this clause PLUS they may also have a restrictive covenant in place on top of that.

[Cyclone]

Your thoughts on being offered full time positions. Don't get me wrong it's nice to be recognised and I'm grateful, I really am....

But my biggest problem with signing a contract is I always get the impression most (not all) companies want to 'own' you. As in they pay you, therefore they feel justified to ask you to do anything within a salaried position, even if it means working late or at weekends or whatever. I know the official line is 9-5 etc. but really that's not the case and you are expected to 'tow the line' within a company.

 

For an enterprising minded person in digital marketing and with a lot of people within the digital sector also having to do projects on the side, this is restrictive as you really never have any free time.

Before people start jumping on the bandwagon, This is not about working hard or lack of work ethic here! it's not as if you get paid more for overtime, share in the profits of your labour or even get paid great salaries to begin with (not in the UK). It just seems like a raw deal to me....looking at the bigger picture.

 

Anyone any thoughts on working for other people?

 

In my career I had two permie jobs and since them multiple contracts through my own ltd services company.

I've had to be flexible and make an extra effort when the company needed it in the past, but I've never had a problem recovering the time, you just need to not be shy in asking for flexibility from them when you need it.

So long as you have a good relationship with the company and your manager then it should never be a problem to work the hours that you are paid for and only do something extra when there's a good reason and to expect flexibility in return when you need it.

 

---------- Post added 07-01-2013 at 15:45 ----------

 

Google allow employees to have a certain amount of time p/month to work on projects / personal development. Called 20% time. They grow because they innovate.

They don't allow those employees to sell the products of their labour independently, google claim the IP to anything developed on their time.

 

Sorry, but I totally disagree with what you are saying. Although I understand what you're getting at.

 

I didn't say 'competing against you'. But this is a common misconception anyway.

The internet is growing 30% year on year. There is always a new angle on a service, a new service and new customers. It just doesn't stand still.

Even 'competing' industries as you put it are more likely to be 'add on' or complementing services when you think about it. For example, Web design doesn't exist in a bubble does it? theres always new updates, always new platforms, always better ways of doing things,

unless you think you can do everything under the sun brilliantly as an individual and grow this way, in which case you would be the exception rather than the rule.

 

Competitors can be in fact potential partners. Internet and affiliate marketers have known this for years, the best way to increase market share is to joint venture.

 

Digital industries are different in this way to other industries like manufacturing. It's an ever and rapidly expanding market.

Certainly it's standard in a contract for any larger company to have some sort of non competition clause in place.

 

Anyway, my feeling is that being permanently employed at most of the places I've worked (even where I've been independent) doesn't involve lots of extra time or the company thinking that they own their direct staff, but if your worst fears turned out to be true then you could always quit.

[L00b]

<...>

 

And you may find in Google's employment contract tiny small print some wording to the effect that any work done is owned by them. Just like students at a university where any inventions created as a result of attending even when done in your own time, belong to the uni. Not saying all unis do this but one in Sheffield does, as do a fair few others.

 

<...>

 

And the majority will have this clause PLUS they may also have a restrictive covenant in place on top of that.

Be mindful that many such clauses in UK employment contracts are so badly worded (as in, and typically, copy-pasted from a US source) as to be completely unenforceable. Especially those about 'prospective' IP ownership (US and EP/UK case law about this are at complete opposites; have been for a very long time indeed )

 

That's why Google can legitimately lay claim to your brain babies and their bath water in the US (under a US contract of employment)...but could not -ever- in the UK (under a UK contract of employment, however the contract 'dresses it' and even if signed).

 

As regards non-competes, a basic (and settled) legal principle (which will again overrule any relevant contract clauses) is that you cannot prevent someone from making a living with using their skills, and the customer catchment (geographical) area typical for your industry will play a role.

[indizine]

But even then they'd have to pay a lawyer a few hundred at least, to fight their case.

 

As to the job, i'd take it if it's something you want to do, and don't if it's not. Or do it short term if you need the money, till you can make enough elsewhere.

 

PS Many of these digital side-workers probably shouldn't be doing it.....they're obviously gonna tell everyone they're allowed otherwise they'd be sacked.

 

What I often see is a graphic designer who sets up on their own and then uses the portfolio of the ex employer.....believing they did the design work they can then use it. Not so. I bet very very few indeed actually get permission. Who wants to see the same logo design being used in 2 different business portfolios?

[L00b]

What I often see is a graphic designer who sets up on their own and then uses the portfolio of the ex employer...

Ah, well...Is the portfolio their ex-employer's? Or their ex-employer's (portfolio entry-respective) customers'?

[TJC1]

Extra time not necessarily a bad thing if you are valued by the company. I've had bad and good experiences. And likewise know of people with bad and good experiences.

The initial observation was In the current climate it's expected employees do more and more - the amount of people I know developing stress and depression problems due to work is scary and probably not a coincidence.

 

But I suppose you either put up or choose to be an independent consultant or start a company. Like you say you can always quit and do something else.

 

---------- Post added 07-01-2013 at 16:13 ----------

 

But even then they'd have to pay a lawyer a few hundred at least, to fight their case.

 

As to the job, i'd take it if it's something you want to do, and don't if it's not. Or do it short term if you need the money, till you can make enough elsewhere.

 

PS Many of these digital side-workers probably shouldn't be doing it.....they're obviously gonna tell everyone they're allowed otherwise they'd be sacked.

 

What I often see is a graphic designer who sets up on their own and then uses the portfolio of the ex employer.....believing they did the design work they can then use it. Not so. I bet very very few indeed actually get permission. Who wants to see the same logo design being used in 2 different business portfolios?

 

 

Yep. So many people take jobs their not a good fit for. Both ways.

If you can pick and choose what to take it makes life easier for you and the employer in the long run.

[Cyclone]

Be mindful that many such clauses in UK employment contracts are so badly worded (as in, and typically, copy-pasted from a US source) as to be completely unenforceable. Especially those about 'prospective' IP ownership (US and EP/UK case law about this are at complete opposites; have been for a very long time indeed )

 

That's why Google can legitimately lay claim to your brain babies and their bath water in the US (under a US contract of employment)...but could not -ever- in the UK (under a UK contract of employment, however the contract 'dresses it' and even if signed).

You're saying that something you dreamt up, at work, within the scope of the business of your employer, using their equipment and time, isn't actually theres but is in fact yours... That would seem to fly in the face of all accepted business practice.

 

As regards non-competes, a basic (and settled) legal principle (which will again overrule any relevant contract clauses) is that you cannot prevent someone from making a living with using their skills, and the customer catchment (geographical) area typical for your industry will play a role.

You can dismiss them for being in breach of a contract which they agreed to though.

 

---------- Post added 07-01-2013 at 16:24 ----------

 

Ah, well...Is the portfolio their ex-employer's? Or their ex-employer's (portfolio entry-respective) customers'?

 

That would depend on the contract their ex employer forms with their customers. Either way, the portfolio almost certainly doesn't belong to the ex employee.

[indizine]

Ah, well...Is the portfolio their ex-employer's? Or their ex-employer's (portfolio entry-respective) customers'?

 

A portfolio of work (and not copyright ownership) can't be denied to the company that the design work was placed with. ie it is fact that indizine designed the logo for abc ltd

[L00b]

You're saying that something you dreamt up, at work, within the scope of the business of your employer, using their equipment and time, isn't actually theres but is in fact yours... That would seem to fly in the face of all accepted business practice.

No. I am saying that a contract clause purporting to assign that "something you dreamt up" to the employer by default is often deficiently-worded (as in, not taking into account legal checks and balances enshrined in relevant UK Statutes), to the point of being unenforceable.

 

It's not because you come up with something during work time that your employer automatically owns it, regardless of what your employment contract says. Practically, it turns on the facts (as always).

 

"Accepted business practice" does not come into it. There are legally-sound and legally-unsound situations and whether, when unsound, these are acted upon or not. Again, it's not because most employees (and employers) are ignorant of relevant legal principles and comparatively few employee IP ownership disputes reach the Courts or the Comptroller year in year out, that the practice (of appropriating employee IP illegitimally) is in any way sound or acceptable.

You can dismiss them for being in breach of a contract which they agreed to though.

Probably. My comment was not directed at the sanction (dismissal), but at the consequence of the sanction (non-compete post-sanction). I'm sure I don't need to explain that a non-compete provision is really only of any use/relevance post-dismissal.

That would depend on the contract their ex employer forms with their customers. Either way, the portfolio almost certainly doesn't belong to the ex employee.

Indeed. That (later) comment was a quip to Sandra, with whom I have briefly talked about this before outside of SF.

A portfolio of work can't be denied to the company that the design work was placed with. ie it is fact that indizine designed the logo for abc ltd

Indeed, but use of the design for indizine's promotional ends will hinge on there being an (at least implied) non-exclusive (hopefully royalty-free, too) license under the design from the design owner (depending on your terms, but expectedly the client, once all monies owed are paid as consideration of course). But we digress...

[Cyclone]

By referring to accepted business practice, I simply meant that most industries could not function if they did not own the output of any creative person that they employed to create something.

If you dreampt it up whilst being paid to dream it up, at work, in the course of your work (for example an engineer paid to invent things) then the company owns that output. You can't be a cold fusion engineer, make the breakthrough at cold fusion inc and then walk out and privately sell your breakthrough to cold fusions incs competitors.

 

If you make the breakthrough at home, sat on the loo, even then I suspect you'd loose any subsequent court case since the breakthrough comes about as a direct result of your employment as is what you are employed to do.

 

If you make an unrelated breakthrough at home in your spare time and solve room temperature superconducting, then I can see that the business would have no claim to that IP no matter what they'd written into a contract.