Informal Wing Chun anyone?

[Barney2]

Hi all. I'd like to hear from anyone who's up for informal (non-club) meetups for a bit of training. Doesn't matter where you train or what style of WC, as long as it's WC or closely related, as everyone has something to add. I've been training with Richard Baines for a while, and he's an amazing guy who's got the street fighting style nailed, but I'm having a bit of a break to concentrate on Chi Sau with a friend and we need others to get involved for a bit more diversity.

 

I'd like to meet ego-free people who are serious about just improving their knowledge & skill. I'm not interested in discussions about who can kick who's ass, etc.

 

Dave

[onewheeldave]

Hi all. I'd like to hear from anyone who's up for informal (non-club) meetups for a bit of training. Doesn't matter where you train or what style of WC, as long as it's WC or closely related, as everyone has something to add. I've been training with Richard Baines for a while, and he's an amazing guy who's got the street fighting style nailed, but having a bit of a break to concentrate on Chi Sau with a friend and we need others to get involved for a bit more diversity.

 

I'd like to meet ego-free people who are serious about just improving their knowledge & skill. I'm not interested in discussions about who can kick who's ass, etc.

 

Dave

 

At the risk of initiating some sparring of the verbal variety- do you reckon Chi Sau/sticky hands is that relevant to street fighting/self defence?

 

I ask because, as I'm sure you're aware, the rise in mma/cage fighting has cleared up a few things that were unclear (and hotly debated) beforehand- perhaps the best example being the vindication of grappling in one-to-one weaponless scenarios (prior to cage-fighting, many martial arts experts argued that grappling was either of no use or, easily negated).

 

If sticky hands is effective, why do we never see it in the cage?

[Barney2]

I understand how these debates get started but they've been thrashed to death in other forums and threads and quite frankly I can't be bothered. Every martial art has got something to offer. I've done a few different ones - TKD, Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, Muay Thai. But I like Wing Chun, it suits me, and I feel that it's useful. I'm no spring chicken and I'm grateful for the training in the other styles as they've helped me stay in pretty good shape into middle age.

 

On the question of fitness, while the harder styles have kept me fit, they've also supplied me with a steady stream of injuries which I'm still trying to heal. Wing Chun is actually helping the healing process and although the way Richard teaches it is full on (people have left the club after one lesson as it was a bit brutal for them), it draws out Chi & healing energies while practicing & it's just a few bruises that unconditioned starters can't deal with.

 

So I know what I like now & know what I want so I apologise if that's not the answer you're looking for. And I take it that you're not a WC practitioner so I don't see the point in continuing any contact.

 

Thanks, & good luck with whatever you're involved with. Dave

 

---------- Post added 19-01-2013 at 19:06 ----------

 

And so not to put anyone off that might want to come down & prac with me, it's purely for the sticky hands techniques which I think need to be developed to a high level but I don't think my club does enough of. We can go into defensive/offensive drills from them but that's not the main aim, just see how it develops.

 

D

[onewheeldave]

Fair enough. I will stress though, that it was a genuine question, not a trolling attempt. The last thing I want to follow from it is the kind of 'debate' all too often seen on martial arts boards.

 

I've got no questions about the practicality of wing chun, I made my mind up on that long ago.

 

But, on the specific question of the effectiveness of sticky hand training (which, as I expect you know, is not purely a wing chun thing, with several other martial arts using various forms of sticky hands), I have to say that I'm not aware of it being 'thrashed to death' on forums.

 

I've seen remarkably little discussion on the effectiveness of sticky hands.

 

If you, or anyone else reading this, does have links to any decent discussions (not flame war/trollfests) on the specific issue of the effectiveness or otherwise of sticky hands/chi sau/sensitivity training, then I would appreciate it.

 

Good luck with finding people to practice with- there have been a few threads on this board started by people wanting to meet up for informal chi sau sessions, so it may be worth you doing a search and pm'ing the posters. Here's couple of short threads I managed to find-

 

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9202072&highlight=sau#post9202072

 

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=5553999

[john_stork]

I think you also have to remember that martial arts are not suited to fighting in a sporting arena simply because they have the potential to kill.

[onewheeldave]

I think you also have to remember that martial arts are not suited to fighting in a sporting arena simply because they have the potential to kill.

 

I'm not going to get into that one here, purely cos it will take this guys thread well off topic. However, if you want to start a new thread on that topic, I'll happily discuss it there.

[Barney2]

@Onewheeldave.

 

The ones I was talking about were basically trollwars, a lot of them on Youtube after vids of mixed discipline fights. They made me want to watch some paint dry instead.

 

& I've seen some more serious threads about the effectiveness of Wing Chun versus other styles which I can't find at the moment but they're out there somewhere. It's still all a bit pointless. A great Karatedo will beat a mediocre WC guy although I think WC is a much better art as my opinion is the 'internal' arts are more in tune with the way our bodies & minds work, and ideal as you get old as well - after all it's supposed to be a lifelong journey, but the western way of doing Ma's is generally to train a bunch of 20 somethings for a few years so they can kick heads in at competitions, then have to give it up in their 30's because they think they're 'too old' for it. I was always looking for something a bit deeper, and got sucked into the western way for a while, naively thinking that because they were martial arts and originated in the east then they must be mystical & spiritual somehow. Didn't have the luxury of the tinterweb when I were a lad so couldn't do any proper research on things back then.

 

Thanks for the links. I've messaged the people involved and found a few more to try.

 

Cheers, Dave

[onewheeldave]

@Onewheeldave.

 

The ones I was talking about were basically trollwars, a lot of them on Youtube after vids of mixed discipline fights. They made me want to watch some paint dry instead.

 

& I've seen some more serious threads about the effectiveness of Wing Chun versus other styles which I can't find at the moment but they're out there somewhere. It's still all a bit pointless. A great Karatedo will beat a mediocre WC guy although I think WC is a much better art as my opinion is the 'internal' arts are more in tune with the way our bodies & minds work, and ideal as you get old as well - after all it's supposed to be a lifelong journey, but the western way of doing Ma's is generally to train a bunch of 20 somethings for a few years so they can kick heads in at competitions, then have to give it up in their 30's because they think they're 'too old' for it. I was always looking for something a bit deeper, and got sucked into the western way for a while, naively thinking that because they were martial arts and originated in the east then they must be mystical & spiritual somehow. Didn't have the luxury of the tinterweb when I were a lad so couldn't do any proper research on things back then.

 

Thanks for the links. I've messaged the people involved and found a few more to try.

 

Cheers, Dave

 

Yes- I'm definitly not interested in debates about wing chun vs other martial arts- seen plenty of those and I've come to my own conclusions about what's effective for actual self defence/fighting.

 

I am specifically interested in the issue of why sticky hands looks, from a rational perspective, like it should be useful for actual combat, yet it's absence in things like cage fighting/mma suggests it's not.

 

By the way, I agree with what you said earlier about the problem of hard martial arts having an adverse effect on health- I also trained in Muay Thai some years back, and, although I thought it was very practical/applicable to self defense/fighting, it did have the problem of having real potential for damaging health over the long term.

 

I stopped training in martial arts a while back, because I came to the conclusion that becoming realistically proficent in anything that would genuinely enable me to deal with real-life violence, would inevitably involve too much risk of substantial damage to my long-term health

 

I do still train a lot, but in things that I consider to be actually good for health, such as kettlebells and a bit of padwork etc.

 

Glad those links were useful.

 

If, on your journey, you do come across any internet discussions on the specific issue of sticky hands and their absence in cage-fighting, then please do post them.

[WalkleyAndy]

I'd just chime in on this one that Chi Sau, as I understand it, isn't really meant for practical application in combat - its a training method. Ip chun's quite clear on this in one of his books where he describes it as "an exercise, a training process, and from it one should learn something - and I don't mean how to knock down one's opponent. Chi Sau should be regarded as a bridge between forms and free-fighting". Appreciate Ip chun's not the definitive Wing Chun source though.

 

If generally you mean why Wing Chun isn't seen in the cage, I think there's a different kind of technique applicable in that scenario to on the proverbial street, though I'm sure many would disagree. From what I see, cage fighting is generally becoming less a mish-mash of arts as it once was and is more homogenized into its own adaptive yet quite consistent style (to the extent you see "MMA" classes everywhere now). But I'm no expert.

 

Dave - Sorry to have carried on replying to the off-purpose bit of the thread. What you're trying to arrange sounds great, and if I were further along with my Wing Chun I'd be up for it, but I've just come to it recently (also learning from Richard) and have a fair bit to learn before I get into Chi Sau.

[onewheeldave]

If generally you mean why Wing Chun isn't seen in the cage, I think there's a different kind of technique applicable in that scenario to on the proverbial street, though I'm sure many would disagree. From what I see, cage fighting is generally becoming less a mish-mash of arts as it once was and is more homogenized into its own adaptive yet quite consistent style (to the extent you see "MMA" classes everywhere now). But I'm no expert.

 

 

No, I wasn't asking why wing chun isn't seen in the cage- I think wing chun is just not suitable for cage fighting. I was wondering why sticky hands (e.g. chi sau or the variants seen in several martial arts).

 

I totally agree that cage fighting has now evolved from the original mish-mash of existing styles (Muay Thai, bjj etc) into a new stlye of it's own- in part due to the various rules that have been introduced into what was originally a 'rule-less' sport.

 

 

 

I'd just chime in on this one that Chi Sau, as I understand it, isn't really meant for practical application in combat - its a training method. Ip chun's quite clear on this in one of his books where he describes it as "an exercise, a training process, and from it one should learn something - and I don't mean how to knock down one's opponent. Chi Sau should be regarded as a bridge between forms and free-fighting". Appreciate Ip chun's not the definitive Wing Chun source though.

 

If chi sau is purely a training method, that would explain why it's not seen in the cage. I was under the impression however, that it was used to teach the practitioner how to read an opponents balance/intention and enable him/her to control the opponent by maintaining contact with their arms.

 

Which would suggest that there must be a place for that kind of skill/ability in an actual fight? Which takes me back to the original question of why that kind of sensitivity/reading via maintained arm contact isn't seen in the cage.