quisquose Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 the trouble here is that you haven't taken the trouble to examine your own Washington Post link properly. Malaysia doesn't figure on the map provided, and even Indonesia, which does, isn't listed as being a country where it is theoretically possible for the death penalty to be levied for aspostates (which is what I imagine you mean, as in both Malaysia and Indonesia alike, non-Muslims, who amount to many millions of people in both countries, are not subject to sharia law). the apostasy issue among the Muslim community (though not anyone else) is indeed a legal issue in Malaysia and a very controversial one, however there is no way the death penalty can possibly be levied for it. The death penalty in Malaysia can only be applied to serious crimes such as murder and drugs trafficking - and in recent years, very rarely (a moritorium on actually carrying out executions as opposed to merely issuing death sentences has been in place in Malaysia for years now, in common with the majority of other south east Asian countries). the seven countries referenced in the article are all in the Middle East and central Asia and several thousand miles/five or six hours on a plane from Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta. being familiar with Malaysia actually is quite important, because if you were familiar with it rather than being so ignorant about it you can't even recognise where it is on a map, then you wouldn't be so imbecilic as to write something as totally ludicrous as 'there is a legal possibility of using execution against people that don't believe in Allah' there. 1. First an apology. I do have to fight my dyslexia from time to time, and this is an occasion. Each time I typed Malaysia I meant the Maldives, and I had the so called 'paradise' island in my head each time I typed the word Malaysia. This followed my posts about so called 'paradises', the link to the video of the wedding ceremony in The Maldives, where I typed Malaysia. Hence my rather absurd scenario of holidaymakers being executed when they step off the plane in The Maldives, even though I typed Malaysia. My mistake, sorry. 2. Was there really any need to direct such insulting language against me? 3. You might be fond of Malaysia, but I still have the place off limits as a tourist destination. Last month I received an email from the Malaysian Atheists which detailed the legalities of discrimination there. I can provide you with a link if you want. It was with this in mind, together with Malaysia's extradition of the Saudi citizen for the 'crime' of atheism, which fueled my dyslexia, for which I apologise. 4. Was there really any need to direct such insulting language against me? 5. My question was directed at Penistone999, and was obviously hypothetical ... it wouldn't have mattered if I had said people being shot in Iceland for eating snow. He expressed an opinion that we should keep our noses out of other countries' laws and punishment. My question was put to show this opinion to be very naive. 6. The fact is that many of us do take notice of foreign policy, and we even have a Government department dedicated to taking notice of foreign policy. I think we are perfectly entitled to point out when we think another country's foreign policy is wrong. 7. The fact is that Indonesia, contrary to claims, has done it's foreign opinion more harm than good with this action. I have heard many people say they will not visit Indonesia because of this, or The Maldives because of that wedding ceremony and calls to execute an atheist. I've never heard anybody say they will not visit there because of drugs. 8. Was there really any need to direct such insulting language against me? ---------- Post added 25-01-2013 at 09:31 ---------- If you visit another country ,you must respect that country`s laws, and be aware of the punishments for breaking their laws. It is for the Government of any country to decide what laws they put in place ,and what punishment to impose for anyone breaking those laws. I had to laugh when i saw a Government minister speaking in Parliament yesterday about this matter. Its got nothing to do with the British Government what punishment another country`s courts pass . This woman knew the punishment for drug smuggling, yet still tried to enter the country with a massive amount of Drugs and got caught. No sympathy what so ever. I understand that many people like Halibut and myself are against the death penalty in principle, whilst others would like to employ it for dropping litter. However, this post of yours is something totally different. You seem to suggest that The Foreign Office is a waste of time. The Maldives is one of seven countries that has the death penalty for not believing in Allah. You'd be okay with agnostic holiday makers being taken away on arrival at the airport there and then executed I suppose, laws are laws after all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgksheff Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 .......... The Maldives is one of seven countries that has the death penalty for not believing in Allah. ......... No. It does not! When you make such fatuous claims, you tend to invalidate much of your other posting. You, and many others, should realise that just reading something on the web does not make it true. If you want to claim things as fact, do a little more research before posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 No. It does not! When you make such fatuous claims, you tend to invalidate much of your other posting. You, and many others, should realise that just reading something on the web does not make it true. If you want to claim things as fact, do a little more research before posting. What would have happened to Muhammad Nazim if he had not reverted to Islam after 2 days of "religious counseling" from the Islamic Ministry whilst in police custody? http://www.iheu.org/files/IHEU%20Freedom%20of%20Thought%202012.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgksheff Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 What would have happened to Muhammad Nazim if he had not reverted to Islam after 2 days of "religious counseling" from the Islamic Ministry whilst in police custody? http://www.iheu.org/files/IHEU%20Freedom%20of%20Thought%202012.pdf Dunno. But he would not have been sentenced to death. Read the words. There is nothing there to say that he would have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Dunno. But he would not have been sentenced to death. Read the words. There is nothing there to say that he would have been. Do you know that for a fact. The Maldives constitutionally requires that all citizens identify as Sunni Muslim. Quite how can that be enforced against a citizen who declares himself a Christian or atheist? Mohammed Nazim announced he was an atheist, and then two days later, after death threats, and receiving Islamic "instruction" in jail he conveniently changed his mind. What if he'd not? Would he have hung himself like Ismail Mohammed Didi, be killed by the state, by the baying mob, or simply locked up until he changed his mind? How is the constitution going to be upheld? It's a dangerous law, which could be misused by any crackpot that happens to be in power. I don't care how nice the beaches are, I'm not visiting a place with such a law in place. I thought my analogy of tourists being marched off to be executed was obviously exaggerated tongue-in-cheek to be honest, but the point being made is that some countries operate laws and punishments that are abhorrent, and it's naive to wave this away as fine because that's just their ways and we should respect it. I think Penistone999 is wrong to hold this view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andygardener Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Do you know that for a fact. The Maldives constitutionally requires that all citizens identify as Sunni Muslim. Quite how can that be enforced against a citizen who declares himself a Christian or atheist? Mohammed Nazim announced he was an atheist, and then two days later, after death threats, and receiving Islamic "instruction" in jail he conveniently changed his mind. What if he'd not? Would he have hung himself like Ismail Mohammed Didi, be killed by the state, by the baying mob, or simply locked up until he changed his mind? How is the constitution going to be upheld? It's a dangerous law, which could be misused by any crackpot that happens to be in power. I don't care how nice the beaches are, I'm not visiting a place with such a law in place. I thought my analogy of tourists being marched off to be executed was obviously exaggerated tongue-in-cheek to be honest, but the point being made is that some countries operate laws and punishments that are abhorrent, and it's naive to wave this away as fine because that's just their ways and we should respect it. I think Penistone999 is wrong to hold this view. The Maldives constitution is a bit weird in only allowing citizenship for Muslims. However they don't have any laws against not being Muslim, certainly not the death penalty. Insulting Islam is a "violation", one step below the lowest level of misdemeanor and carries no actual punishment. That aside the basic point is that while we can hold views on the appropriateness of other countries laws it is down to them to make them and if we choose to visit those countries down to us to obey them while we are there. KSA has loads of ridiculous laws, as a result I would not visit the place, but if I chose to then it's down to me to obey them while I'm there. The days of telling Johny foreigner how it's going to be in his own country are in the past, even the remaining colonies have a large degree of autonomy in their lawmaking these days (for example homosexuality only stopped being a crime in the remaining Caribbean colonies in 2000). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 The Maldives constitution is a bit weird in only allowing citizenship for Muslims. However they don't have any laws against not being Muslim, certainly not the death penalty. Insulting Islam is a "violation", one step below the lowest level of misdemeanor and carries no actual punishment. So why was Mohammed Nazim in jail? Why was Ismail Khilath Rasheed jailed? That aside the basic point is that while we can hold views on the appropriateness of other countries laws it is down to them to make them and if we choose to visit those countries down to us to obey them while we are there. KSA has loads of ridiculous laws, as a result I would not visit the place, but if I chose to then it's down to me to obey them while I'm there. The days of telling Johny foreigner how it's going to be in his own country are in the past, even the remaining colonies have a large degree of autonomy in their lawmaking these days (for example homosexuality only stopped being a crime in the remaining Caribbean colonies in 2000). I agree to a point, and do choose not to visit such countries. However, I think the basic point is that we do tell "Johnny Foreigner" when we disapprove of their laws in a most vocal manner, as they do in return. As far as I know the Caribbean colonies are yet to remove the laws against buggery, and that they have said they will by 2015 is only and precisely because of international pressure and against their own wider domestic opinion. This is the real point, which is the opposite to what Penistone999 claims. I want Indonesia to know that the rest of the world disproves of killing somebody for drug dealing far more than the drug dealing itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgksheff Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 ..........I want Indonesia to know that the rest of the world disproves of killing somebody for drug dealing far more than the drug dealing itself. Which is something that you are entitled to feel strongly about. But "the rest of the world" do not share your view, yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callippo Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 she's not going to get executed. In common with almost all of the other south east Asian countries (except Singapore and Vietnam) Indonesia doesn't go in for executions any more. Thailand - no executions since 2003 except 2 totally unexpectedly in 2009 Malaysia - 1 in 2008, 1 in 2006, before that previous one 2003 Indonesia - only a handful terrorists have been executed since 2001. No drugs traffickers and no murderers Cambodia - 1989 Laos - 1989 Brunei - 1983 Myanmar - 1986 Philippines - totally abolished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Which is something that you are entitled to feel strongly about. But "the rest of the world" do not share your view, yet. Agreed, but I am reassured that even in the UK most don't agree with me with respect to capital punishment but it's the reasoned arguments that decided policy. http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/46891/two-thirds-of-britons-would-bring-back-capital-punishment/ So by "rest of the world" I optimistically mean those who can sensibly and rationally argue an opinion. Dream on, eh? However, and interested by andygardener's mention of The Caribbean I have just stumbled on this article from there: http://www.demerarawaves.com/index.php/201202193339/Latest/caribbean-plans-regional-approach-to-abolish-gay-laws.html Compare the political timetable to change, due to international pressure, with the comments. If the comments are anything to go by ("it's Abam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!") then that change is despite public opinion as I said earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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