Britain’s brain drain damaging our economy.

[Mecky]

In your case it would appear considerably. It's been explained to you before why this works, I'm sorry if you wilfully refuse to listen as you do to so many things.

 

Tell us why then

[Bigthumb]

I remember one of those idiotic US presidental candidates saying tax cuts would make employers create jobs. How thick is it possible to get?

 

I don't know. I had always assumed that there was a finite limit before I started reading your posts.

[LeMaquis]

Stop the free movement of people into the UK with zero net immigration, if no one is leaving, no one can come in. If people still move abroad to work then we replace them through immigration if we can’t replace their lost skills through training.

 

Let's say the UK needs 1,000 new nurses or plumbers, jobs that people already here won't do. But no one is emigrating. What do you do then?

 

Your problem is that the number of jobs in any particular sector goes up and down. If the number of trained people in one sector goes into short supply then the obvious solution is to increase immigration to meet it. Otherwise there'll be a continued shortage.

[L00b]

The free movement of people and our tax regime appear to adversely affect our economy as our talented workers leave and are replaced by the less talented from abroad.

This sentence applies just as equally to France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Ireland, etc, etc (to use only EU Member States, by way of example) whose talented workers have been flocking to the UK and Germany for decades, with UK Plc and Deutschland AG reaping benefits accordingly.

 

It's an issue as old as the hills, but the UK is in a better position about it than most, and has been for a very long time indeed.

[evildrneil]

The real way to stop the brain drain is to have an economy and society where brains have reasonable jobs and security in the UK. Currently I would never suggest to anyone that they go into science, which is a desperate pity as any potential future this country has is built on science. However at the moment there is just no reasonable career path for scientists. Companies are increasing out-sourcing their research to universities where it is being done as part of PhD projects or by (comparatively) very cheap post docs. Once you've spent you 7-8 years in university learning science and getting your pre-requisite PhD you fine that you have a research lifespan of probably 5-6 years as a post doc on short term contracts (so no settling down, having families or buying property) after which you have to get a fellowship which are like hens teeth. So you look to the private sector to find that largely they are stopping front line research letting someone else take the risk so they can snap up the research and profit by it. So you have a choice of retraining, moving into research management (if you can find a role there with no experience - and the experience of managing a PhD and any subsequent post docs doesn't count because it's "not commercial") or moving abroad where more forward looking countries and companies are still engaging in meaningful research an development and pay their researchers a reasonable wage.

 

Now put yourself in that situation - why would you not join the brain drain?

[altus]

Tax cuts.

 

Free means tested university education for some degrees and only for the brightest students. Refundable if they want to leave the country to work.

 

Stop the free movement of people into the UK with zero net immigration, if no one is leaving, no one can come in. If people still move abroad to work then we replace them through immigration if we can’t replace their lost skills through training.

 

Government funded training to help employers train new staff.

 

Work for benefits for all able bodied people.

Don't you think companies raising wages to match those abroad might help?

[L00b]

Don't you think companies raising wages to match those abroad might help?

First, you can't legislate that.

 

Next, on the assumption that you could (it's so big an IF that you'd see it from the Moon), you need to define where 'abroad' is.

 

Examples to illustrate the point:

• if it's Bahrain or Saudi Arabia, then of course you have a point (...but they swim in petro-dollars there, and can afford to pay the most for the best relative to anywhere on Earth. The UK does not swim in petro-dollars, very far from it).
  
• if it's Australia, or Canada, you might have a point (depending on the industry/job, that is).
  
• if it's France or Germany, usually it's less well paid than the UK (and/or more income taxation renders the higher wage effectively lower than the UK).
  
• needless to say, if it's BRICs, then it's definitely less well paid.

EDIT - in principle, I suppose you could legislate public service wages...but you'd need the taxation income from the private sector to pay for it, which just isn't there - nor is likely to be, as tax rates as progressively eased to increase national competitivity.

[altus]

First, you can't legislate that.

 

Next, on the assumption that you could (it's so big an IF that you'd see it from the Moon), you need to define where 'abroad' is.

 

Examples to illustrate the point:

• if it's Bahrain or Saudi Arabia, then of course you have a point (...but they swim in petro-dollars there, and can afford to pay the most for the best relative to anywhere on Earth. The UK does not swim in petro-dollars, very far from it).
  
• if it's Australia, or Canada, you might have a point (depending on the industry/job, that is).
  
• if it's France or Germany, usually it's less well paid than the UK (and/or more income taxation renders the higher wage effectively lower than the UK).
  
• needless to say, if it's BRICs, then it's definitely less well paid.

EDIT - in principle, I suppose you could legislate public service wages...but you'd need the taxation income from the private sector to pay for it, which just isn't there - nor is likely to be, as tax rates as progressively eased to increase national competitivity.

I wasn't suggesting legislation - my comment was directed at the following point in the OP:

Some business leaders have blamed Britain’s tax regime for encouraging skilled professionals and executives to leave.

It doesn't require legislation for the business leaders blaming Britain's tax regime for a brain drain to increase the wages they pay.

 

As for pay/tax differences between countries, yes that's true, but if people are leaving to work in BRIC countries with the associated low pay (or even European countries with lower effective pay but better public services), I'm not sure lowering UK taxes is going to stop them.

[evildrneil]

Don't you think companies raising wages to match those abroad might help?

 

That would help - or at least a reasonable rate of pay for the skills! More important though is something like a career path - currently for far too many in the science / technology job market there is none and so they are pretty much forced abroad if they want to use their hard won skills. For all the "we need scientists and engineers" rhetoric the jobs are scarce (especially outside the south east) and comparatively badly paid.

[L00b]

I wasn't suggesting legislation - my comment was directed at the following point in the OP

In fairness, that was not clear from your post (which quoted maxmaximus but not the OP).

It doesn't require legislation for the business leaders blaming Britain's tax regime for a brain drain to increase the wages they pay.

No, but the UK's tax regime as it is already compares favourably with most countries of a socio-economic standing comparable to the UK.

 

It's a red herring, UK business leaders are just after improving the bottom line, so of course will blame whatever ills (including the brain drain) on the tax regime (as usual).

 

The real issue is the low taxation prevalent in BRICs and wannabe-BRICs (which don't have the UK's spend commitments...yet). Can't be gotten round, I'm afraid.

As for pay/tax differences between countries, yes that's true, but if people are leaving to work in BRIC countries with the associated low pay (or even European countries with lower effective pay but better public services), I'm not sure lowering UK taxes is going to stop them.

Most European countries I'm familiar with (France, Germany, Benelux, Italy) have exactly the same issues as the UK in terms of public spend commitments and, accordingly, whilst they might currently offer 'better public services', I expect this isn't going to last much longer at all. They're just delaying the inevitable, longer than the UK did.

 

When Hollande, as a socialist and historically/traditionally as pro-public service as they come, is already in Sarkozy's shoes between the fabled rock and hard place where public spending cuts are concerned, after only a few months into his presidentship, you just know the cookie is going to crumble pretty soon.

 

Lowering UK taxes is targeted at 'business', with new job creation as one of the expected by-products of it. It's never been designed to stem the brain drain (which, for those concerned, is primarily driven by perceived/effective lack of job opportunities).

 

The only tax legislation the French Gvt tried to use for combatting the brain drain, was to tax "emigrated French brains" still having taxable income/assets in France, on the first €0.01 rather than per the applicable thresholds of French resident tax payers (who did not pay tax on the first € 7,000 or so at the time IIRC). It was a punitive/coercive measure on the 'brains'. Tabled and voted (railroaded, more like) in the Assembly on December 31, enacted and in force on January 1st (that's socialists for you ). Unsurprisingly, the near-instant outcome was a mass exodus and sell-out of the said income/assets, with less tax receipts to show for it 2 years later, than if they'd left it alone.

 

Still...18 years later, socialists are back in in France, and Hollande's minions are again, and already, making noises about new ways of eking tax income out of "emigrated French brains". Under the current proposals, I would be paying the balance to the French Gvt, between my actual income tax in the UK and what my (French) income tax would be if I earned and resided in France. At least they are consistent in their crassness. Might have to give Gérard a buzz soon