maxmaximus Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Forgive me for being off topic here but is anyone else wondering if maxmaximus is ok? He/she has been missing for 3 or 4 days now after being an ever-present earlier on in the thread. Admin sent me on an all inclusive holiday as a reward for my excellent posting record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Yes but I'm not aware that any of the opponents of gay marriage have carried out such discrimination and hate crimes. Can you seriously not envisage or accept that there is a pretty good chance that those who are homophobic and commit hate crimes probably also oppose gay marriage? Yes I can see that it would be wrong if religious people were going round everywhere calling gay people sinners, but if you ask a religious person for their reason for opposing gay marriage, and their answer is, “because it’s my belief that being gay is a sin,” it would then be a little unfair to claim they have just abused all gay people, when in fact all they have done is answer your question with honesty. No, what they have done is both - they have honestly admitted they have an abusive opinion of gay people and voiced that abuse. Please do not try to build a case for entrapment, questions can be ignored. ---------- Post added 12-02-2013 at 21:01 ---------- I wonder if Maxmaximus and MrSmith will have a bit of a run in now as Max has been quite rude on this thread, calling posters stupid and impugning their intelligence. What do you think of quotes like this MrSmith? Again you demonstrate your stupidity Isn’t that just no good reason in your opinion, to them, they have a good reason which you are incapable of understanding. Not you too, I imagined you had more intelligence; anyway does the dumbed down version help you to understand it. My understanding of the word bigot is that it means to demonstrate intolerance towards someone because of their opposing opinions, and as nothing to do with them just having an opinion that you find distasteful. There is only one group on here showing such intolerance and I'm afraid you are in that group. ---------- Post added 09-02-2013 at 07:54 ---------- Why are posts such as this tolerated by the mods, yet when I answer it my answer is removed, the fact my response was removed and didn’t break any rules would demonstrate some intolerance to my opinion on you. There's a word for that, Bigoted. Surely you must disapprove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Forgive me for being off topic here but is anyone else wondering if maxmaximus is ok? He/she has been missing for 3 or 4 days now after being an ever-present earlier on in the thread. Were you not around when Mr.Smith invented the Maxmaximus alternate account? It comes in handy for him. ---------- Post added 12-02-2013 at 21:18 ---------- Unaware and no humour intended. Just had another look at it, it looks like the argument will go on forever because neither side can give an explanation for their views that the other side thinks is rational. You don’t think someone’s explanation for opposing gay marriage is rational; they don’t think your explanation for supporting it is rational. At that point it’s just best to agree to disagree because neither side is likely to change their opinion, the alternative is for the argument to turn into a verbal slanging match and then possibly violence. I think both explanations are rational with both sides of the argument having reasonable reason for their opinions. Again, I haven't seen anyone expressing that they thing my explanations are irrational, perhaps you could give an example of someone who thinks this? Because it’s just my opinion which is subjective, I am of the opinion that both sides of the argument have good points; sadly neither side appears to think the other side as a good point. And if you think their opinion is irrational and they think your opinion is irrational then you have reached dead lock and any further discussion is pointless. As far as I can see, nobody against gay marriage has said that they think any of the "for" opinions are irrational, and if they've implied it somewhere, they certainly haven't explained how it is irrational. ---------- Post added 12-02-2013 at 21:28 ---------- Thats the problem,people will get so used to being called "homophobic bigots" for being against gay marriage for the reason you describe the traditional union of marriage,they will cease to be offended by the accusation. It isn't that long ago that i was against gay church marriage for that same reason,though i was much in favour of a civil ceremony. Hearing other views,reading further information,and seeing the comments on the gay christian websites etc made me think more deeply about it,it also confirmed to me what i had heard before that there are plenty of gay people who also don't believe in gay marriage. I'm repeating this again,I don't think it should be assumed that a person is homophobic for not believing in gay marriage. The thing with "tradition" is this, it's perfectly fine to say you don't want gays to be permitted because of tradition, because that's your opinion, which everyone's entitled to have. The problem arises when someone tries to use tradition as the basis for their argument against same sex marriage. If you're going to base your argument on something, it has to stand up to scrutiny, which is where the "tradition" argument falls flat on it's face. Tradition is basically how stuff's been for a long time, down through the generations. When the question arises: "For a long time now, only straights have been allowed to marry. I think it's time gays were allowed to marry, don't you?" and someone answers "No, because of tradition. Traditionally marriage is for a man and a woman" they are just saying "No, because For a long time now, only straights have been allowed to marry, so that's why only straights should be allowed to marry" Simply acknowledging how things have been for a long time is not a rational argument. There is no logic or reasoning in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Can you seriously not envisage or accept that there is a pretty good chance that those who are homophobic and commit hate crimes probably also oppose gay marriage? It's highly likely that some opponents of gay marriage are homophobic, and even more likely that many opponents of gay marriage aren't homophobic and that some homophobic people aren't bothered what homosexuals do as long as they don’t do it near them. No, what they have done is both - they have honestly admitted they have an abusive opinion of gay people and voiced that abuse. Please do not try to build a case for entrapment, questions can be ignored. So basically anyone that opposes gay marriage should avoid discussion because it’s highly likely that someone will call them an homophobic bigot. That would be very covenant for the supporters of gay marriage and a good incentive to continue their abuse of the opponents. I think the word for that is oppression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 It's highly likely that some opponents of gay marriage are homophobic, and even more likely that many opponents of gay marriage aren't homophobic and that some homophobic people aren't bothered what homosexuals do as long as they don’t do it near them. So basically anyone that opposes gay marriage should avoid discussion because it’s highly likely that someone will call them an homophobic bigot. That would be very covenant for the supporters of gay marriage and a good incentive to continue their abuse of the opponents. I think the word for that is oppression. Or they could give a rational, practical and logical explanation as to why they oppose it, rather than an irrational aversion (which some may call homophobia) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Or they could give a rational, practical and logical explanation as to why they oppose it, rather than an irrational aversion (which some may call homophobia) But what you deem to be irrational they may deem to be rational, and it’s just been pointed out that if they express their opinion they will be subject to abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Sorry confused now, doesn't take much aparantly. My opinion is that both sides have made good points to support their stance, I also think both sides have built a mountain out of a mole hill. I can see why neither side will ever agree with the other side because both sides have very strong deeply seated opinions on the subject. I don’t think gay people are being discriminated against by calling their wedding a civil partnership but I wouldn’t be opposed to changing it to marriage. Neither it seems would you like to answer direct questions, let's try again. what good points do you think the anti gay marriage brigade have, let's dissect them one by one. As you claim to be 'in the middle' I will take the fact that you said I don’t think gay people are being discriminated against by calling their wedding a civil partnership but I wouldn’t be opposed to changing it to marriage[/Quote] as your opinion and not that of those opposed to gay marriage. So here it is again, just to be sure, you don't need to dance around it, skip away or claim to be confused, merely answer the question. What good points do you think the anti gay marriage brigade have? It would be helpful if you provided each point like this 1, ...... 2, ...... so that we can look at each individually. Not difficult, nothing to get confused about, merely answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 But what you deem to be irrational they may deem to be rational Then they should be able to explain how it is rational, instead of going round in circles trying to present opinion as reasoning and it’s just been pointed out that if they express their opinion they will be subject to abuse. I haven't abused anyone, why has nobody presented their rational argument before me and others who have remained civil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 It's highly likely that some opponents of gay marriage are homophobic, So you accept that some opponents of gay marriage are homophobic but claim as to be unaware that any have carried out homophobic discrimination and hate crimes? Yes but I'm not aware that any of the opponents of gay marriage have carried out such discrimination and hate crimes. Who do you think are responsible for homophobic discrimination and hate crimes? So basically anyone that opposes gay marriage should avoid discussion because it’s highly likely that someone will call them an homophobic bigot. That would be very covenant for the supporters of gay marriage and a good incentive to continue their abuse of the opponents. I think the word for that is oppression. Nope, that is another of those straw men you are so found of building which is probably why you expend so much energy clutching at straws. If the opinion offered is homophobic and bigoted as many on this thread have been as Jessica23 pointed out in post 812 http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9562433&postcount=812 then to identify the homophobia and bigotry is perfectly justifiable morally and to be expected. Just because a question is answered honestly does not mean the answer cannot also be abusive. You implied the two are mutually exclusive. If a person honestly states that they believe that being gay is a sin that is both honest and abusive. They do not get off the hook for being abusive just because they genuinely believe it to be true. I imagine most discriminatory abuse is founded upon opinions that the perpetrators genuinely believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Neither it seems would you like to answer direct questions, let's try again. what good points do you think the anti gay marriage brigade have, let's dissect them one by one. As you claim to be 'in the middle' I will take the fact that you said as your opinion and not that of those opposed to gay marriage. So here it is again, just to be sure, you don't need to dance around it, skip away or claim to be confused, merely answer the question. What good points do you think the anti gay marriage brigade have? It would be helpful if you provided each point like this 1, ...... 2, ...... so that we can look at each individually. Not difficult, nothing to get confused about, merely answer the question. What’s the point, it’s just my opinion that both sides have made some good points to support their stance, you don’t think they are good points because if you did you would agree with me. No amount of going over the same ground will change your opinion or my opinion. We have both seen the same information and both come to entirely different conclusions which is perfectly normal. Humans have disagreed with other since we started to walk the earth and nothing is going to change that. All we can hope for is that we learn to tolerate each others opinions and beliefs no matter how offensive we might find them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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