denlin Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I think because in this country church and state are intertwined, C of E is sort of our default setting and we don't think about it that much. We no longer protect it or realise how much it underpins much of our way of life. Yet in the face of much more aggresive, proactive religions, even aggresive atheism, it needs protecting or it is in danger of being replaced with someting we don't want. We'll miss it when it's gone... I've led a fairly blameless life without it for the last 48 years Anna and I resent the fact that you equate atheism with aggression when most religions are used as an excuse for violence now and most definitely in the past. Northern Ireland is just one example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheeldave Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 So when your sample is made up of pretty much only people from charitable organisations you've been involved with of course they're generally going to be nice people! Duh! No- I said that most of the people involved with/running the specific groups I mentioned (youth/community/scouts) have been Christian. And that the reason most of these groups exist is due to the Christian beliefs of those who facilitate them. Why should that be a surprise? Atheism is nothing more than an absence of belief in supernatural/unprovable entities- why should atheists be any more inclined than any other member of the public, to set up or work for a charitable organisation. I'm not criticising atheists for not running community groups- why should they? In contrast, Christians have a set of beliefs which do lead to some of them setting up/running such groups, which, I expect, explains why the majority of the community/youth/scout groups I've encountered have been run by Christians. I'm certainly not saying that no community/youth/scout groups are run by atheists- just that I've not seen any that I'm aware of. (I'm almost certain that some of the groups I've worked with would have had the occasional volunteer who was atheist). People are generally gonna pick you up on it. Whih one are you talking about? Your average non-fundamentalist Christian? Christians on the whole? Or the small subset of Christians you have worked with over they years? Yes, the last one- the christians I've worked with, the ones I'm qualified to comment on. I've clearly definitly excluded the fundamentalist types, as, IMO, they're a bit nutty and potentially quite dangerous Also that bit in brackets is a complete cheat, why do you get to exclude them from your sample and yet include the atheists you don't like? I'll exclude fundamentalists if I wish- as I'm specifically talking about non-fundamentalist christians it makes sense to do so. It makes sense to me, in a rational discussion, to make it very clear precisely who I'm talking about, and, who I'm not talking about. Not sure who these 'atheists I don't like' are? All I've said about atheists are- 1. they don't run any of the youth/community/scout groups I've encountered 2. there's no doctrines in atheism which would compell them to run such groups (as atheism lacks all such doctrines) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I think because in this country church and state are intertwined, C of E is sort of our default setting and we don't think about it that much. We no longer protect it or realise how much it underpins much of our way of life[/Quote] I thought the OP was talking about the Catholic Church (although I have yet to have clarification about this - it was a bit confusing) Yet in the face of much more aggresive, proactive religions[/Quote] Interesting, which religion is more 'aggressive' and 'pro active' than Christianity in its various forms? even aggresive atheism[/Quote] What's aggressive Atheism? Do you mean Anti Theism? it needs protecting or it is in danger of being replaced with someting we don't want[/Quote] So you do want Christianity? Do you follow the Bible then? We'll miss it when it's gone... Why will we? Serious, very important quesion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'll exclude fundamentalists if I wish- as I'm specifically talking about non-fundamentalist christians it makes sense to do so. It makes sense to me, in a rational discussion, to make it very clear precisely who I'm talking about, and, who I'm not talking about. But why, when making a comparison of the general niceness of the Christians and Atheists you've come across, do you think it's ok to exclude a significant portion of Christians? and yet include all the atheists? Why not also exlclude the so-called fundamentalist/militant atheists? (I do remember rightly that you're one of those who is happy to use those terms right?) All I've said about atheists are- 1. they don't run any of the youth/community/scout groups I've encountered 2. there's no doctrines in atheism which would compell them to run such groups (as atheism lacks all such doctrines) That's not entirely true, I wouldn't contest either of those points. See above for my objection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheeldave Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I think because in this country church and state are intertwined, C of E is sort of our default setting and we don't think about it that much. We no longer protect it or realise how much it underpins much of our way of life. Yet in the face of much more aggresive, proactive religions, even aggresive atheism, it needs protecting or it is in danger of being replaced with someting we don't want. We'll miss it when it's gone... Anna- a little word of warning: you're not going to get anything productive by claiming that 'aggresive atheism' exists- it'll lead to flaming and a locked thread (like many other christian/atheist threads on this board. IMO, some atheists who frequent these threads, seem to welcome accusations of 'aggresive atheism', as they're in very familiar territory. I've seen many, many threads, where points have been raised that do put the atheists on the back foot (ie stuff they can't effectively argue against), then someone starts talking about 'aggresive atheism' and the thread turns into a flame war and gets locked. Not saying it's all down to the atheists- it does take 2 to have a violent argument At the end of the day, atheists will also, when in trouble, go back to the 'atheism is nothing other than a lack of belief in supernatural/unprovable entities' stance, which, in their eyes, effectively makes an 'aggressive atheist' a logical impossibility. However, as we're seeing in this thread, that stance also means, by the same reasoning, that they cannot make any claims that 'atheists are charitable' either. I'm quite keen to see how they deal with that, it would be unfortunate if the thread gets locked before that. Of course, it's entirely your choice- if you really wish to pursue the 'aggressive atheism' point, but, honestly, it will only lead to a locked thread, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Anna- a little word of warning: you're not going to get anything productive by claiming that 'aggresive atheism' exists- it'll lead to flaming and a locked thread (like many other christian/atheist threads on this board. Whoa, you've got it all wrong Dave! Aggressive atheism is a thing, sometimes I've been aggressive myself. Used aggressive language, been quite confrontational in my argument style, etc. What I've never done is demand that everyone obey my doctrine or ever threatened or engaged in violence because of my atheism. What I'm not, is a fundamentalist or militant, I can be aggressive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheeldave Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 But why, when making a comparison of the general niceness of the Christians and Atheists you've come across, do you think it's ok to exclude a significant portion of Christians? and yet include all the atheists? Because it is- they are the group I'm talking about? It's standard procedure in a rational discussion to specify who/what you're talking about. I'm not sure what your issue is here? Why not also exlclude the so-called fundamentalist/militant atheists? (I do remember rightly that you're one of those who is happy to use those terms right?) I have used those terms in the past. Like I said in my advice above to anna, I now consider them counter productive in these discussions, so I won't be using them here. We live and learn Besides which, even if I did still use those terms, i've not actually referred to the groups in question on this thread- other than in Annas post, they've not cropped up. That's not entirely true, I wouldn't contest either of those points. See above for my objection. Thanks for the clarification there. ---------- Post added 13-02-2013 at 15:08 ---------- Whoa, you've got it all wrong Dave! Aggressive atheism is a thing, sometimes I've been aggressive myself. Used aggressive language, been quite confrontational in my argument style, etc. What I've never done is demand that everyone obey my doctrine or ever threatened or engaged in violence because of my atheism. What I'm not, is a fundamentalist or militant, I can be aggressive though. No. You can have an aggressive person who also happens to be an atheist. But, feel free to disagree, it's not something I'm going to spend time going round in cirlces about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denlin Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 OnewheelDave, have you ever heard of the Woodcraft Folk? Also I am involved in fundraising at the moment. OK I don't get involved on a regular basis but that is because I work full time. I am also a former leader of Woodcraft Folk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dromedary Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 All I've said about atheists are- 1. they don't run any of the youth/community/scout groups I've encountered 2. there's no doctrines in atheism which would compell them to run such groups (as atheism lacks all such doctrines) 1. Maybe not the ones you have encountered after all you work with Christian groups. 2. Atheism is not a religion and therefore does not need such doctrines. There are plenty of non Christian organisation that do voluntary work with youth and community groups. You will also notice that its the Christian ones that seem to be in the news with all the issues of sexual abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheeldave Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 OnewheelDave, have you ever heard of the Woodcraft Folk? Also I am involved in fundraising at the moment. OK I don't get involved on a regular basis but that is because I work full time. I am also a former leader of Woodcraft Folk I've heard of them- not had any experience with them though. I believe they originated from a pagan background? And are now basically non-religious and welcome anyone of any, or no, religious belief? ---------- Post added 13-02-2013 at 15:42 ---------- Originally Posted by onewheeldave View Post All I've said about atheists are- 1. they don't run any of the youth/community/scout groups I've encountered 2. there's no doctrines in atheism which would compell them to run such groups (as atheism lacks all such doctrines) 1. Maybe not the ones you have encountered after all you work with Christian groups. No- I work with youth/communtiy groups etc. i.e. Any youth/community groups that wish to run the activites I do, and, who are willing to pay me to run them. Most of the groups I've worked with have been run/facilitated by christians- that's just my experience. I'm totally happy to work with any groups run/facilitated by atheists- I've just not encountered many. 2. Atheism is not a religion and therefore does not need such doctrines. I know- I've said just that multiple times in this thread actually, it's not that atheism doesn't need such doctrines- it cannot have them, as atheism is nothing other than a lack of belief in supernatural/unprovable entities. There are plenty of non Christian organisation that do voluntary work with youth and community groups. Cool, send them my way, I could use some extra work Seriously, if they're Sheffield based and want to put on circus skills/craft activities for their members, and (this is important) have the funds to pay for them, send me the links. You will also notice that its the Christian ones that seem to be in the news with all the issues of sexual abuse.And your point is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.