PaliRichard Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I do apologise if I've offended you, it certainly wasn't intentional. I have had some interesting debates with representatives of Humanist groups and personally have found them to be just as bigoted in their views as in any religion, and actually quite aggresive, but perhaps that's hust me. Where religion is concerned, I like the way we just jog along in this country, live and let live, tolerant and not too concerned. Yet many people put CofE on their census form and dispite rarely attending church, believe it to be so. I believe many of these people would jump to defend their beliefs / way of life, if they were threatened. More trouble is the last thing we need so let's hope it's never put to the test in that way. As have I. But a Humanist is a specific ideal, an atheist is merely lack of belief, they are different thing. Apologies in my reply to you I wasn't clear regarding what you meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheeldave Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 It's okay. I'm with you. If I understand the rules I can play along. I'm a Charitable Humanist who also happens to be an Athiest. I'm in. OK. So, just to be sure we're totally clear, if I've understood you right, you'd agree with what I said was the main point I was trying to make? Or not? Either way, the fact remains that atheism, as a doctrine/whatever it is that atheism is, has no set of beliefs, and, is simply a lack of belief. Thus no atheist can be charitable because of their atheism; whereas, some Christians are charitable, as a result of their Christian beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Sleeps Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Yep. No atheist can be motivated by his atheism. I don't go and help at a charity because of a lack of belief in God. I help at a charity because I dislike injustice and want to help people. Yet, to argue from Kant, being a good person because of a belief in God has no moral value either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryedo40 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Maybe it's cos I do community work, a lot of which is in youth groups, the vast majority of which, if you trace back to the people providing the work to find funds and run the groups, tend, in this country, to be christian. Because atheists were once oppressed in this country, atheist organisations were few and they didn't have the financial backing and privileges that religious groups had. But since the times of Charles Bradlaugh and Annie Besant, things have steadily being changing. Charities are becoming increasingly secular (even ones that had their roots in christianity) and atheist groups and charitable events are popping up all over the place. That also applies to scouts/guides etc. In my experience, atheists don't sem to set up groups to provide such services. http://www.camp-quest.org.uk/ I've just not seen much in the way of practical community provision coming from atheists, whereas christians do a lot in that direction (in fact, from what I can see, if they ceased to do so, youth community provision in deprived communities would drop to even lower levels than it is now). If that was to happen, existing and new atheist/humanist and secular charities would simply take their place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheeldave Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Because atheists were once oppressed in this country, atheist organisations were few and they didn't have the financial backing and privileges that religious groups had. But since the times of Charles Bradlaugh and Annie Besant, things have steadily being changing. Charities are becoming increasingly secular (even ones that had their roots in christianity) and atheist groups and charitable events are popping up all over the place. http://www.camp-quest.org.uk/ If that was to happen, existing and new atheist/humanist and secular charities would simply take their place. I'm ready to be convinced When in comes to youth/community provision, need far outstrips supply. To now, for whatever reason, religious groups have been the main suppliers, but, there's never been enough to fulfill the needs. If secular groups wish to take up that slack, then I'll be totally happy, as, I suspect, would many of those religious volunteers currently giving up their time to help. It would also help if atheists and believers could get together and do something constructive, rather than waste time arguing with each other ---------- Post added 13-02-2013 at 18:04 ---------- If that was to happen, existing and new atheist/humanist and secular charities would simply take their place. I disagree with this though- there aren't sufficent atheist/humanist and secular charities to take up the slack, and no evidence that there will be in the future. I'm not saying it definitly won't happen, simply that there's no evidence that shows it definitly will. The reality is, that if the current services provided by religiously orientated groups ceased, there could well be no provision. As it is, such organisations have been finding it increasingly more difficult to provide their service (due in part to funding cuts) and, from what I can see, atheist/humanist and secular charities are not appearing to replace them- certainly not on a local/community level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andygardener Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Either way, the fact remains that atheism, as a doctrine/whatever it is that atheism is, has no set of beliefs, and, is simply a lack of belief. Thus no atheist can be charitable because of their atheism; whereas, some Christians are charitable, as a result of their Christian beliefs. I'm not sure that's correct. An atheist does not believe in god/gods, and thus all the associated stuff like heaven/hell etc. Therefore it could be argued that because they believe those things do not exist and for the individual there is only this life that is important to help others in this life as there isn't any god doling out eternal sweeties to the wronged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six45ive Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Yep. No atheist can be motivated by his atheism. I don't go and help at a charity because of a lack of belief in God. I help at a charity because I dislike injustice and want to help people. People can be motivated by a lack of belief in a god. If you believe that the imaginary god that somebody else believes in does more harm to society than good then you can be motivated by that. The guys who do the Atheist Experience show (a charitable organisation) in my signature are a prime example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Christians dont need protecting. As far as the Catholic religion is concerned while it may be on the wane in Europe it's following has shifted largely to the southern hemisphere. Due to the increased immigration to the US from Latin America it shows every indication of thriving in the US also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 People can be motivated by a lack of belief in a god. If you believe that the imaginary god that somebody else believes in does more harm to society than good then you can be motivated by that.The guys who do the Atheist Experience show (a charitable organisation) in my signature are a prime example. That is not being motivated by a lack of belief in something, that is specifically being motivated by someone else's belief in something that you disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six45ive Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'm not sure that's correct. An atheist does not believe in god/gods, and thus all the associated stuff like heaven/hell etc. Therefore it could be argued that because they believe those things do not exist and for the individual there is only this life that is important to help others in this life as there isn't any god doling out eternal sweeties to the wronged. And that's what humanism is. So this strawman argument of; "atheists can't do good inspired by their atheism because their atheism has no doctrine" fails. It doesn't take into account of what morals/principles/ethos come about specifically because of a lack of belief in a god. ---------- Post added 13-02-2013 at 17:42 ---------- That is not being motivated by a lack of belief in something, that is specifically being motivated by someone else's belief in something that you disagree with. No, it's being specifically motivated by my lack of belief based on how I've rationally come to the conclusion that I don't believe in god. It's not simply a disagreement along the lines of Real Madrid are better at football than Barcelona and somebody else says the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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