All the 'good' people are criminals

[Harleyman]

Innovation and ideas are what the British are renowned for. But they also need investment and that's where the British get let down.

 

The investments will be there if the system of taxation isnt punitive enough to discourage it.

 

---------- Post added 15-02-2013 at 20:49 ----------

 

Good post. Totally agree.

 

And it's not just top jobs, but right across the arts as well; theatre, music, entertainment etc. are all over represented by private and public school types.

 

I dont agree. Private and public schools dont instill creativity in a person. It's a natural gift people are born with whether it be music, the ability to act or sports. Many of them go through lean times before they get there and make the sacrifices

[mjw47]

no school can instill a 'creative gift' that isn't an inherent part of a child to begin with. it can however provide the opportunity to develop that gift.

 

in the field of sport for instance how do you explain the fact that a high percentage of olympic gold medalists are privately educated? a far larger percentage than the 7% that attend private schools.

if a child is talented it has a far greater chance of that talent being developed if its parents can afford to pay for its education than if they carn't. i personally feel that is unfair & all children should have an equal opportunity. this would not of course guarantee an equal outcome & some would always end up better off than others but at least it would be as fair as possible & that is surely what we should be aiming for?

[Michael_W]

no school can instill a 'creative gift' that isn't an inherent part of a child to begin with. it can however provide the opportunity to develop that gift.

 

in the field of sport for instance how do you explain the fact that a high percentage of olympic gold medalists are privately educated? a far larger percentage than the 7% that attend private schools.

if a child is talented it has a far greater chance of that talent being developed if its parents can afford to pay for its education than if they carn't. i personally feel that is unfair & all children should have an equal opportunity. this would not of course guarantee an equal outcome & some would always end up better off than others but at least it would be as fair as possible & that is surely what we should be aiming for?

 

Unfair ? Equal opprtunity ?

What because some olympic sports are for the more priveleged in society ? Who's fault is it that Darts and snooker are not olympic events ?

Look, life ain't fair, society cannot provide equality, partly because it would have to be unfair to the haves to provide for the have nots.

There are good and bad people of every class, economic and social status, always has been and always will, there is no one size fits all in life and people must learn to adapt and make the most of their lot, envy does not make good !

[Anna B]

Unfair ? Equal opprtunity ?

What because some olympic sports are for the more priveleged in society ? Who's fault is it that Darts and snooker are not olympic events ?

Look, life ain't fair, society cannot provide equality, partly because it would have to be unfair to the haves to provide for the have nots.

There are good and bad people of every class, economic and social status, always has been and always will, there is no one size fits all in life and people must learn to adapt and make the most of their lot, envy does not make good !

 

We have had far more social mobility and equal opportunities in the past, but it has been eroded by various political moves over the last 30 years. So it is quite possible for life to be more fair. And that seems eminantly to be desired if you don't want social unrest. It's not envy, it's simple justice.

 

Besides it's a huge waste of talent not to give opportunities to all. Who knows which mind the next genious invention or miraculous cure will come from?

[MrSmith]

Unfair ? Equal opprtunity ?

What because some olympic sports are for the more priveleged in society ? Who's fault is it that Darts and snooker are not olympic events ?

Look, life ain't fair, society cannot provide equality, partly because it would have to be unfair to the haves to provide for the have nots.

There are good and bad people of every class, economic and social status, always has been and always will, there is no one size fits all in life and people must learn to adapt and make the most of their lot, envy does not make good !

 

I couldn't agree more.

[mjw47]

MICHAEL W. from where exactly in my previous post did you get the impression that i was envious of anyone?

my comments were purely meant as an example of how not everyone receives the same opportunities in life & how it would benefit the country if things could be made a little fairer.

what is the problem with that?

incidently michael, i owned & was managing director of my own business for 16 yearsi sold it in january 2000 to a world renown PLC & retired at the age of 53 & i have never envied anyone anything in my life.

 

as to why snooker & darts aren't olympic sports that would be because they are not sports, they are games which require no physicality or bravery of any kind. in my opinion golf isn't a sport either but apparently they are including it next time. so you're right there michael life aint fair!

[Michael_W]

MICHAEL W. from where exactly in my previous post did you get the impression that i was envious of anyone?

my comments were purely meant as an example of how not everyone receives the same opportunities in life & how it would benefit the country if things could be made a little fairer.

what is the problem with that?

incidently michael, i owned & was managing director of my own business for 16 yearsi sold it in january 2000 to a world renown PLC & retired at the age of 53 & i have never envied anyone anything in my life.

 

as to why snooker & darts aren't olympic sports that would be because they are not sports, they are games which require no physicality or bravery of any kind. in my opinion golf isn't a sport either but apparently they are including it next time. so you're right there michael life aint fair!

 

Don't take things so personally, I did not specifically say it was you who was envious, but clearly some in our society believe that some don't get a fair crack, some of those people believe that due to their envy of the more priveleged.

Some people would judge you as priveleged because you retired at 53, how exactly do people like you suggest we make society fairer, and give people equal opportunity ?

I think what you and your ilk are actually suggesting is what is already happening, that is to hold back those with any natural talent or ability so as to give others with little or no talent chance to catch up.

Take education for example, more and more people have gone to university, more and more people leave school with decent qualifications, because their schools are judged on results.

People may have good qualifications on paper because they have been given a fair crack, however within that pool of people some will have talent, ambition, initiative and drive etc and others will have lesser or greater qualities, we are not all the same and will therefore achieve different things, that is the way it works ...... otherwise we would all retire early

[Anna B]

Don't take things so personally, I did not specifically say it was you who was envious, but clearly some in our society believe that some don't get a fair crack, some of those people believe that due to their envy of the more priveleged.

Some people would judge you as priveleged because you retired at 53, how exactly do people like you suggest we make society fairer, and give people equal opportunity ?

I think what you and your ilk are actually suggesting is what is already happening, that is to hold back those with any natural talent or ability so as to give others with little or no talent chance to catch up.

Take education for example, more and more people have gone to university, more and more people leave school with decent qualifications, because their schools are judged on results.

People may have good qualifications on paper because they have been given a fair crack, however within that pool of people some will have talent, ambition, initiative and drive etc and others will have lesser or greater qualities, we are not all the same and will therefore achieve different things, that is the way it works ...... otherwise we would all retire early

 

Sorry but you seem to be ignoring the facts. 7% go to private schools but get 40% of the top jobs. This is not just because of education but because of the influential contacts made.

Too many people with ability never get a fair crack of the whip because they don't know the right people to get a foot in the door.

[mjw47]

michael as you quoted my previous post in your reply i assumed you were replying to me.

 

with regard to retiring early there was the small matter of a health problem which led to a triple heart bypass a few years later so not all beer & skittles as my old man used to say!

as to what my ilk are suggesting i carn't speak for them but i would certainly not agree with working to the lowest common denominator to even things out. i'm wanting things to be as fair as possible. how would penalising gifted children be fair?

 

a way of making things fairer for poorer gifted children would be to bring back grammar & technical schools which should never have been discontinued in the first place.

admittedly the 11 plus would need revising as it was pretty crude & wound up excluding gifted children who panic under pressure, some thing which doesn't actually reflect normal working conditions.

 

and no i didn't attend a grammar school. i had a somewhat disrupted schooling in that i went to 6 different schools in two different countries the last one being a technical school in ireland.

having worked with ex grammar & technical school pupils i formed an opinion that it was a good education which equipped them well. i have also worked with privately educated people & in general found them excellent but not noticeable better.

[Anna B]

michael as you quoted my previous post in your reply i assumed you were replying to me.

 

with regard to retiring early there was the small matter of a health problem which led to a triple heart bypass a few years later so not all beer & skittles as my old man used to say!

as to what my ilk are suggesting i carn't speak for them but i would certainly not agree with working to the lowest common denominator to even things out. i'm wanting things to be as fair as possible. how would penalising gifted children be fair?

 

a way of making things fairer for poorer gifted children would be to bring back grammar & technical schools which should never have been discontinued in the first place.

admittedly the 11 plus would need revising as it was pretty crude & wound up excluding gifted children who panic under pressure, some thing which doesn't actually reflect normal working conditions.

 

and no i didn't attend a grammar school. i had a somewhat disrupted schooling in that i went to 6 different schools in two different countries the last one being a technical school in ireland.

having worked with ex grammar & technical school pupils i formed an opinion that it was a good education which equipped them well. i have also worked with privately educated people & in general found them excellent but not noticeable better.

 

I never thought I'd say this as I have in the past been a keen supporter of the Comprehensive system, but I think you're right.

 

I always thought that Comps would embrace the best of the Grammar school system and bring equality for all, (remember it wasn't even possible to take exams in some Secondaries,) but sadly that's not been the case.

 

I'd like to see Grammar schools return for the accademically gifted, and top quality technical schools with different specialisms for the rest. Both with equal status and prospects.

 

Is that really too much to ask? We clearly have to do something to drag Britain out of this slump, and it all starts with quality education for all. When I think of how much money has been pumped into education and wasted because the basics aren't right, I could weep.