All the 'good' people are criminals

[iansheff]

Could it be the lengths of time that corrupts them, and would restricting MP’s to one term in office prevent such corruption?

 

Would give more people a chance to have a ride on the gravy train.

[Michael_W]

mjw and anna, with respect, your both still talking as if it were so easy to level the playing field. How on earth do we pick out the poor gifted and at what age, so as to give them opportunity ?

Education is not always the answer, there are plenty of poor people who made good over the centuries, largely through their own hard work and endeavour, so that flies in the face of having equal opportunity to a great extent.

Quoting figures about percentages getting private education and percentages of those people in the top jobs means what ?

You can't give everyone a private education and you can't give everyone a top job !

With regards to dragging Britain out of a slump, we need to create jobs before we go any further with education, I'm all for more vocational education to improve young peoples potential employability, particularly within certain sectors, but the jobs need to be their in the first place surely !

Like I said, never have so many had the opportunity to get and taken a university education than in the last 20 years but the job market can't provide everyone opportunities for their qualifications IMHO !

With regards to talent, it comes in various forms, some people will naturally be gifted, they may be athletic and sporty, or academic and geeky, some may be artistic etc etc .... people are not naturally equal !

I do think we are straying way off topic too

[Anna B]

mjw and anna, with respect, your both still talking as if it were so easy to level the playing field. How on earth do we pick out the poor gifted and at what age, so as to give them opportunity ?

Education is not always the answer, there are plenty of poor people who made good over the centuries, largely through their own hard work and endeavour, so that flies in the face of having equal opportunity to a great extent.

Quoting figures about percentages getting private education and percentages of those people in the top jobs means what ?

You can't give everyone a private education and you can't give everyone a top job !

With regards to dragging Britain out of a slump, we need to create jobs before we go any further with education, I'm all for more vocational education to improve young peoples potential employability, particularly within certain sectors, but the jobs need to be their in the first place surely !

Like I said, never have so many had the opportunity to get and taken a university education than in the last 20 years but the job market can't provide everyone opportunities for their qualifications IMHO !

With regards to talent, it comes in various forms, some people will naturally be gifted, they may be athletic and sporty, o r academic and geeky, some may be artistic etc etc .... people are not naturally equal !

I do think we are straying way off topic too

 

 

With respect, we used to live in a much more equal society so it is quite possible.

 

In the early 20th century we had a Prime Minister who was the son of a cleaning woman (sorry, can't remember his name) and a run of 5 Prime Ministers who all went to state schools. The way into politics was open to all.

 

Can you imagine that happening now? With the rise of the professional Oxbridge politician and advisors, and party selection committee's short lists voting for 'another one of us', do you think it will happen now?

 

That's why we've ended up with 22 millionaires in the cabinet all out of touch with reality and little experience of the real world.

 

Not exactly a great success are they?

[mjw47]

michael where did i or anna say it was easy? we are simply saying that wherever possible fairness should play a part.

at the moment the playing field is not only not level, it is massively weighted in favour of those people who can afford to buy an advantage for their children.

i don't think we are massively off topic either. the present system did not come into place by pure chance. we are in this position because successive governments over many years have ensured that their 'kind' have retained position & power to the exclusion of the majority of the population.

this is not exclusive to this country it happens in most places but that doesnt make it right. there is also no doubt that some of the conduct of numerous politicians over the years has been criminal, however they operate under a different set of rules to the rest of us & get away with actions which would result in prosecution for normal citizens.

 

your attitude appears to be 'well,what can you do about it? every now & then some working class kid makes it to the big time so that's alright then'.

 

well you may be happy with the status quo but some of us would like an effort at improvement made. that is how countrys improve to make life better for ALL their citizens.

no one said it's easy to achieve but introducing as fair a system as possible would be a start.

as far as creating jobs is concerned, unless the work involved is basic menial tasks only how do you suggest we aquire a suitable workforce to carry out this work? perhaps we could import them from finland which i believe has the best education system in the world. they tend to speak fluent english too.

[Michael_W]

michael where did i or anna say it was easy? we are simply saying that wherever possible fairness should play a part.

at the moment the playing field is not only not level, it is massively weighted in favour of those people who can afford to buy an advantage for their children.

i don't think we are massively off topic either. the present system did not come into place by pure chance. we are in this position because successive governments over many years have ensured that their 'kind' have retained position & power to the exclusion of the majority of the population.

this is not exclusive to this country it happens in most places but that doesnt make it right. there is also no doubt that some of the conduct of numerous politicians over the years has been criminal, however they operate under a different set of rules to the rest of us & get away with actions which would result in prosecution for normal citizens.

 

your attitude appears to be 'well,what can you do about it? every now & then some working class kid makes it to the big time so that's alright then'.

 

well you may be happy with the status quo but some of us would like an effort at improvement made. that is how countrys improve to make life better for ALL their citizens.

no one said it's easy to achieve but introducing as fair a system as possible would be a start.

as far as creating jobs is concerned, unless the work involved is basic menial tasks only how do you suggest we aquire a suitable workforce to carry out this work? perhaps we could import them from finland which i believe has the best education system in the world. they tend to speak fluent english too.

 

I think your dreaming of some strange levelling factor that can be introduced

You say things were fairer in the past

Can you explain why we are where we are now then ?

Back when man was dwelling in caves things would have been fairer for sure, but then man evolved, by nature the strongest and the smartest became the most successful and flourished. It may not always seem to be done legitimately and there are those who by inheriting wealth appear to be given advantage though ultimately not guaranteed, but I don't see any suggestions of a better system by you.

Are you a communist

[mjw47]

communist? wonderfull idea, very like christianity if you think about it. all men are created equal. well, yes actually i do believe that all men , & women, are created equal but no, although raised a catholic i am neither a communist nor a christian.

you see as marvellous as both systems appear they are simply unworkable. they both go against human nature. as a species we are venal, greedy, duplicious, scheming ,murderous stupid mammals. which is how we got where we are now.

you apparently, think this is fine. everything is hunky dory in your servile, accepting of the status quo world. i bet you're a monarchist.

 

i, and although i wouldn't presume to speak for someone else, possibly anna b would actually prefer to hope for something better.

 

three thousand years ago we were that ignorant as a species that we used to settle disputes by killing each other. but now ,with all that history has taught us we ......

 

i have a four year old grandson & in the next two weeks another grandchild is due. i have had a good life but do you know what? i wish for them an even better life.

 

now michael w i don't want you to take this personally. i may well have totally misconstrued your posts but you come across as i right loser. a man who hasn't quite made it as he wanted, & who has decided that's just the way it is & therefore everyone should just accept their fate & accept that some people are just born into a better life.

 

if i'm wrong on that assessment then i apologize but that's the way you have presented yourself in these posts.

 

what i make absolutely no apology for, is a wish that we can as humans try to improve the future for everyone.

i had a pretty poor education but was lucky & did ok. not everyone is lucky & i would like to see them given an even break wherever possible. what is your objection to that?

 

incidently we have previously in this thread only spoken about education in terms of employment but education is valuable simply for its own sake, it makes life more enjoyable, or so they say.

[Anna B]

I think your dreaming of some strange levelling factor that can be introduced

You say things were fairer in the past

Can you explain why we are where we are now then ?Back when man was dwelling in caves things would have been fairer for sure, but then man evolved, by nature the strongest and the smartest became the most successful and flourished. It may not always seem to be done legitimately and there are those who by inheriting wealth appear to be given advantage though ultimately not guaranteed, but I don't see any suggestions of a better system by you.

Are you a communist

 

God knows we've been trying....

 

As mjw47 says;

 

"We are in this position because successive governments over many years have ensured their kind have retained their position and power to the exclusionof the majority of the population."

 

You don't need to go back to the cave man, the recent past says it all.

The power of the Victorian coal barrons and mill owners was scuppered by the rise of the unions, with a few enlightened philanthropists on side, insisting on better working conditions and laws to protect workers. They were fought every step of the way by the barrons, but they improved the lot of the working man.

 

After the first world war, the Russian revolution, the general strike and the second world war, to quell potential communist uprisings the welfare state was set up, giving health care to all, access to higher education, and all the benefits (not 'Benefits') that are now being dismantled.

 

The post war period was arguably the time of greatest social cohesion and social mobility, a golden age that we are now seeing the dying embers of. All those now championing the 'work hard and get ahead like I did' philosophy probably don't realise how much they owe to the opportunities they were given. This next generation will not have the same chances they had.

 

Unless you have a perspective of recent history and sociology, it is difficult to imagine a world without it, but it is coming. We are descending into a world of a few super rich, with the rest of us bound in working class servitude.

[Michael_W]

communist? wonderfull idea, very like christianity if you think about it. all men are created equal. well, yes actually i do believe that all men , & women, are created equal but no, although raised a catholic i am neither a communist nor a christian.

We are not created equal in terms of physical / mental abilty, health or wealth ..... sorry !

you see as marvellous as both systems appear they are simply unworkable. they both go against human nature. as a species we are venal, greedy, duplicious, scheming ,murderous stupid mammals. which is how we got where we are now.

So please explain how you change those centuries old human traits.

you apparently, think this is fine. everything is hunky dory in your servile, accepting of the status quo world. i bet you're a monarchist.

So you think you know what I think, mmmmmm and what would being a monarchist have to do with anything ?

 

i, and although i wouldn't presume to speak for someone else, possibly anna b would actually prefer to hope for something better.

 

Ah yes hoping for better, but with no idea whatsoever of how that can be achieved ........

 

three thousand years ago we were that ignorant as a species that we used to settle disputes by killing each other. but now ,with all that history has taught us we ......

Yep some disputes are still settled by us killing each other !

 

i have a four year old grandson & in the next two weeks another grandchild is due. i have had a good life but do you know what? i wish for them an even better life.

Good for you, I'm a grandparent too, wishing for a better life is all well and good, but again what do you actually suggest society does to achieve this ?

 

now michael w i don't want you to take this personally. i may well have totally misconstrued your posts but you come across as i right loser. a man who hasn't quite made it as he wanted, & who has decided that's just the way it is & therefore everyone should just accept their fate & accept that some people are just born into a better life.

You yourself have accepted that some people are born into a better life, it seems to have made you bitter, get over it, it makes you sound like a loser

 

if i'm wrong on that assessment then i apologize but that's the way you have presented yourself in these posts.

I don't want or need your apologies, I have lived my life without delusional expectations, or handouts, charity or pity to give me a helping hand, not that I am against any of those things, but I have endeavoured to do my best and accepted the rough and the smooth that life brings ta !

 

what i make absolutely no apology for, is a wish that we can as humans try to improve the future for everyone.

i had a pretty poor education but was lucky & did ok. not everyone is lucky & i would like to see them given an even break wherever possible. what is your objection to that?

You see, you accept that luck comes into it, but then want society to change fate by giving people what you call 'even breaks', how on earth is that possible when luck plays such a big part ?

I'm not objecting to anything, just failing to understand how society is going to become this idealistic one you desire.

 

incidently we have previously in this thread only spoken about education in terms of employment but education is valuable simply for its own sake, it makes life more enjoyable, or so they say.

Yes I agree, but a willingness and desire to learn goes a long way too !

[mjw47]

MICHAEL W. are you being deliberately obtuse as some kind of wind up? you appear to misunderstand what i would have thought were fairly straight forward statements on a continuous basis.

to answer your highlighted points in turn.

 

1, we all know that people are born with differing degrees of physical & mental ability. we are however all created equal in terms of worth. no one is 'better' than another simply because they were born into a certain class or family.

 

2,in an earlier post i put forward the suggestion that we should make an effort to improve our state education system which is pretty poor for a nation of our size, wealth & supposed standing. in addition to the three r's an effort to teach people how to think & how to deal with moral questions would go some way to addressing the problem.

 

3,i didn't presume to know what you think. you passed a comment about whether i might be a communist. i assume you made that remark because you interpreted my previous posts regarding fairness as being in some way a communist way of thinking. i was simply returning the thought by interpreting your 'that's how it is, accept your place in society & don't expect any better' as a fairly standard monarchist mindset.

 

4, as before, a perfectly valid suggestion for starting to improve matters by upgrading our state education system was apparently ignored by you, hence my original question as to whether you were doing it deliberately.

 

5, 'yes we still settle disputes by killing people'. so that's all you have to say about the matter then? from that i can only assume that you see no problem with this arrangement. well fortunately for you & i, at our age we wont be called upon to do any killing or dieing. as your attitude throughout this thread has appeared to be 'i'm alright jack bugger everyone else' i suppose it doesn't come as a great surprise.

 

6, and again! how many times? to effect long term change in any society you have to start with the children. improve education & look to start home grown technical industries & inward foreign investment attracted by a well educated workforce. it's what germany did & it worked for them. and as you know the english are part of the germanic race!

 

7, bitter? what exactly am i supposed to be bitter about? i've already told you, i did just fine out of life & was fortunate to be able to retire early & see a bit of the world.

in fact i consider myself extremely fortunate but apparently unlike yourself i would quite like as many people as possible to enjoy the same good fortune.

 

8,don't want my apology? fair enough. i think we have the essence of our different outlook on life in your comments here. what you claim to have done with your life is absolutely no different to what the majority of people i know, including myself have done with ours. the difference is that most of us would welcome an improvement for future generations. i am not asking that people be given charity, nor that they be leveled out to some sort of mediocre standard.

i believe in a meritocracy rather than the existing system. an across the board even level of opportunity will not result in everyone ending in the same place. it will however result in the ones that work hard & seize that opportunity ending up where they deserve to be, no matter where they came from.

 

9, as i thought i had explained in previous posts & have stated again above, providing everyone with an even break is not charity nor is it some kind of idealistic dream. it is in fact common sense. the people of any country should be viewed as an asset to the nation. casting the net as wide as possible to find the brightest & the best is the way to guarantee improvement in the countrys performance in international trade. this country is rapidly slipping backwards in comparison with upcoming nations. one of the reasons for that is that we are still ruled by an elite who are simply not as good as they think they are but will take every opportunity to continue the status quo.

 

10, yes, at last we agree on something! without the desire to seize the opportunity nothing will be achieved but there's nothing you or i can do about that. and at that point the person will fail, but they will have had their chance!

[Michael_W]

MICHAEL W. are you being deliberately obtuse as some kind of wind up? you appear to misunderstand what i would have thought were fairly straight forward statements on a continuous basis.

to answer your highlighted points in turn.

 

1, we all know that people are born with differing degrees of physical & mental ability. we are however all created equal in terms of worth. no one is 'better' than another simply because they were born into a certain class or family.

 

2,in an earlier post i put forward the suggestion that we should make an effort to improve our state education system which is pretty poor for a nation of our size, wealth & supposed standing. in addition to the three r's an effort to teach people how to think & how to deal with moral questions would go some way to addressing the problem.

 

3,i didn't presume to know what you think. you passed a comment about whether i might be a communist. i assume you made that remark because you interpreted my previous posts regarding fairness as being in some way a communist way of thinking. i was simply returning the thought by interpreting your 'that's how it is, accept your place in society & don't expect any better' as a fairly standard monarchist mindset.

 

4, as before, a perfectly valid suggestion for starting to improve matters by upgrading our state education system was apparently ignored by you, hence my original question as to whether you were doing it deliberately.

 

5, 'yes we still settle disputes by killing people'. so that's all you have to say about the matter then? from that i can only assume that you see no problem with this arrangement. well fortunately for you & i, at our age we wont be called upon to do any killing or dieing. as your attitude throughout this thread has appeared to be 'i'm alright jack bugger everyone else' i suppose it doesn't come as a great surprise.

 

6, and again! how many times? to effect long term change in any society you have to start with the children. improve education & look to start home grown technical industries & inward foreign investment attracted by a well educated workforce. it's what germany did & it worked for them. and as you know the english are part of the germanic race!

 

7, bitter? what exactly am i supposed to be bitter about? i've already told you, i did just fine out of life & was fortunate to be able to retire early & see a bit of the world.

in fact i consider myself extremely fortunate but apparently unlike yourself i would quite like as many people as possible to enjoy the same good fortune.

 

8,don't want my apology? fair enough. i think we have the essence of our different outlook on life in your comments here. what you claim to have done with your life is absolutely no different to what the majority of people i know, including myself have done with ours. the difference is that most of us would welcome an improvement for future generations. i am not asking that people be given charity, nor that they be leveled out to some sort of mediocre standard.

i believe in a meritocracy rather than the existing system. an across the board even level of opportunity will not result in everyone ending in the same place. it will however result in the ones that work hard & seize that opportunity ending up where they deserve to be, no matter where they came from.

 

9, as i thought i had explained in previous posts & have stated again above, providing everyone with an even break is not charity nor is it some kind of idealistic dream. it is in fact common sense. the people of any country should be viewed as an asset to the nation. casting the net as wide as possible to find the brightest & the best is the way to guarantee improvement in the countrys performance in international trade. this country is rapidly slipping backwards in comparison with upcoming nations. one of the reasons for that is that we are still ruled by an elite who are simply not as good as they think they are but will take every opportunity to continue the status quo.

 

10, yes, at last we agree on something! without the desire to seize the opportunity nothing will be achieved but there's nothing you or i can do about that. and at that point the person will fail, but they will have had their chance!

 

Blah blah blah education, yes we all get one, to what extent do you see the unfairness and inequality ?

You say there is nothing you or I can do about people not seizing opportunity, so how and why is that any different to what I'm saying already happens ?

You talk about how fortunate you were and hope more can have that same fortune, yet struggle with elitism, is that the same elitism that is born of good fortune

What is your problem with the elite that you talk about, if it's not bitterness ?

What is this mysterious even break you talk about ?

I'm alright jack ? Come on you can do better than that !

We will have to agree to differ old lad, me and you have very little in common