mjw47 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 you really can't see that the present system is unfairly biased in order to maintain the existing state of affairs? really? you are either on a wind up or are simply not the sharpest. take the two characters we currently have running the place. cameron & osborne. you really think these two are the best we've got? a nation of over 60 million people & the best we can come up with is an articulate bully boy & a smug semi aristocrat both of whom are totally out of their depth. there is no such thing as an 'elite' except in their own minds & the acceptance given them by forelock tuggers. the only titled people who should command any sort of respect hold the titles doctor, professor & engineer. and is there any chance you could shut up about this' bitterness' you keep banging on about? how many times do you need to have something explained to you before you finally grasp something? the only reason i can come with for your repeated use of the word is that it is a freudian slip & you are the bitter one. this would in fact neatly explain your consistent refusal to accept that, if possible, people should get a fair chance in life. you didn't, so they shouldn't. as i keep on explaining, & you keep on failing to grasp, i would simply like a situation where everyone gets an equal opportunity in life. an equal opportunity does not mean an equal outcome. some will succeed some will fail but none of that should depend as it does at present on what your background is. cameron & osborne have had the advantage of the finest education available. if, after that, they did indeed turn out to be the best of the best then great, we're all in clover! i simply don't care what their background is . unfortunately i don't believe these two are anything special. believe me or not, but i hope i'm wrong about them, we are, in common with most countrys, in a right state & in dire need of inspired leadership. don't see it coming from this government & the opposition aren't exactly filling me with confidence either. as to us not having much in common i think you're right there. despite everything i still have faith in people & believe that given the chance things can be improved. you appear to have given up on improvement & accepted that things should just carry on as before despite the fact that it's blindingly obvious that we are currently heading into a downward spiral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_W Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 you really can't see that the present system is unfairly biased in order to maintain the existing state of affairs? really? you are either on a wind up or are simply not the sharpest. Yes thats typical of the hypocrisy of your ilk, you question my sharpness, yet you fail to answer any questions or make any suggestions of how you would improve anything take the two characters we currently have running the place. cameron & osborne. you really think these two are the best we've got? a nation of over 60 million people & the best we can come up with is an articulate bully boy & a smug semi aristocrat both of whom are totally out of their depth. So your problem is with the Tories and generally those who have had the privelege of a private education ! there is no such thing as an 'elite' except in their own minds & the acceptance given them by forelock tuggers. I'm sorry I thought you had mentioned the elite in an earlier post the only titled people who should command any sort of respect hold the titles doctor, professor & engineer. Yes I would partially agree with that. and is there any chance you could shut up about this' bitterness' you keep banging on about? But you do come across bitter in your posts ...... my apologies. how many times do you need to have something explained to you before you finally grasp something? You have explained very little actually ! the only reason i can come with for your repeated use of the word is that it is a freudian slip & you are the bitter one. this would in fact neatly explain your consistent refusal to accept that, if possible, people should get a fair chance in life. you didn't, so they shouldn't. Still no explanation about who is not getting a fair chance and how to provide it ....... I'm waiting ...... as i keep on explaining, & you keep on failing to grasp, i would simply like a situation where everyone gets an equal opportunity in life. an equal opportunity does not mean an equal outcome. some will succeed some will fail but none of that should depend as it does at present on what your background is. Again you keep banging on about equal opportunity, who is not getting this and how do you go about providing it ...... samples please. cameron & osborne have had the advantage of the finest education available. if, after that, they did indeed turn out to be the best of the best then great, we're all in clover! How do you know it's the finest education available i simply don't care what their background is . unfortunately i don't believe these two are anything special. believe me or not, but i hope i'm wrong about them, we are, in common with most countrys, in a right state & in dire need of inspired leadership. don't see it coming from this government & the opposition aren't exactly filling me with confidence either. I actually agree with that statement too ! as to us not having much in common i think you're right there. despite everything i still have faith in people & believe that given the chance things can be improved. you appear to have given up on improvement & accepted that things should just carry on as before despite the fact that it's blindingly obvious that we are currently heading into a downward spiral. I am a realist not a fantasist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 dear me MICHAEL W you really are hard work. i'm questioning your sharpness because I HAVE explained ,on more than one occasion, how we could at least start to make a difference & you completely ignore it & go off at a tangent. one more time into the breach i go. the future of any country ultimately depends upon the abilities of it's young. you & i are, with respect, past it. in order to maximize the potential of the future leaders, engineers, scientists, inventors,entrepreneurs etc i want AS MANY CHILDREN AS POSSIBLE to receive the best possible education available OK? at present that is simply not the case. it is possible at the moment to buy an advantage for a child which will, in the future guarantee that he or she will obtain a higher position, more money & a better standard of living than another child who is more intelligent & possess' more ability but who's parents lack the means to provide that start. for the benefit of the country & everyone i want the very best of the best to get to the top. should it turn out that the brightest & the best is the child of a multi millionaire & tenth in line to the throne, fine, who cares if they're the best that's all that matters. in no way do i wish to replace one form of discrimination with another, is that clear enough? incidently i love the 'ilk', never been part of an ilk before! no i don't blame the torys, i have no time for any particular political party as i believe they are all pretty much the same. gordan brown was a disaster with his deregulation of the financial sector & tony blair is a snake oil salesman who should count himself lucky not to be charged with war crimes. funny enough the last prime minister i had any time for was john major who at least seemed to be trying his best. no i don't have a problem with people who have been fortunate enough to have a private education. in fact i have five first cousins who have all been privately educated. they are all nice people who mean a great deal to me. their parents are fully aware of my views & in fact agree with me. however as things stand they know the best thing they can do is pay for their childrens education. i totally agree with them but would prefer if they didn't have to pay & that level of education was available to all. i don't believe in elites i believe in equality ,elite is however a word which people understand & is therefore usefull. no i'm not bitter. other than the choice of football team which was chosen for me by my father i have nothing to be bitter about. no need to apologise. i have, i believe explained & have done so again above. the most effective way to have an impact on the future prosperity of this country is to invest in a major improvement in the educational standards of the state provided system. at present only 7% of children receive a private education & yet they occupy over 50% of the top jobs. are you seriously suggesting that they just happen to be the most able,best suited people to fill these jobs? or is it more likely that the advantage they gained enabled them to take these positions ahead of more suitable people? seriously? do you honestly believe that that particular 7% just happened to be naturally more gifted than the other 93%? is that a reasonable example or sample for you? what i want to see is the very best wherever they come from, be given the opportunity to succeed to the benefit of all of us. how do i know that eton provides an education second to non in the world? err possibly because it's a well known fact? or maybe because if you bother to look up educational league tables it says so? also old boys include, the duke of wellington,robert walpole, shelley, robert boyle, ian fleming, alec douglas-home, david cameron & a whole plethora of that type of personnel. i would counter that lot by pointing out that the old boys from one of my six schools included the mooney gang, the garvin mob & patrick macgoohan but somehow i feel they may not be impressed. what i would like is that money saved from the huge waste in the public sector, the NHS the MOD the numerous useless quangos & the multitude of other totally useless projects we get involved in be taken & used to ensure the future prosperity of this country by ensuring that we make the best possible use of our assets which in the main is the population of the country. no michael you're not a realist, you're a defeatist. someone who's beaten before you even give it a try. i've met quite a few like you over the years. you can always see the difficulties, always see the drawbacks you can never see the opportunity & you're never prepared to take the chance. don't worry about it, someone else will do it for you. won't be me, too old, but i'll be wishing them luck whilst no doubt you'll hope they fail to prove you right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_W Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 dear me MICHAEL W you really are hard work. i'm questioning your sharpness because I HAVE explained ,on more than one occasion, how we could at least start to make a difference & you completely ignore it & go off at a tangent. one more time into the breach i go. Chill out fella, I have ignored nothing, you don't seem to be too sharp yourself, you seem to have an ideology, but no solutions to how this can be achieved, so your missing my point. the future of any country ultimately depends upon the abilities of it's young. you & i are, with respect, past it. in order to maximize the potential of the future leaders, engineers, scientists, inventors,entrepreneurs etc i want AS MANY CHILDREN AS POSSIBLE to receive the best possible education available OK? Ok thats all well and good, I have no problem with that, but how do you change the current system to achieve that ? Do you really think that lack of opportunity is the problem, and that people are not getting a fair crack ? at present that is simply not the case. it is possible at the moment to buy an advantage for a child which will, in the future guarantee that he or she will obtain a higher position, more money & a better standard of living than another child who is more intelligent & possess' more ability but who's parents lack the means to provide that start. for the benefit of the country & everyone i want the very best of the best to get to the top. should it turn out that the brightest & the best is the child of a multi millionaire & tenth in line to the throne, fine, who cares if they're the best that's all that matters. in no way do i wish to replace one form of discrimination with another, is that clear enough? No it's not clear enough, how can it be achieved ? Blimey and you think I'm hard work ! I asked you in an earlier post at what age you would be spotting the talent of the not so priveleged and how you would nurture it .... did I not ? incidently i love the 'ilk', never been part of an ilk before! Your welcome no i don't blame the torys, i have no time for any particular political party as i believe they are all pretty much the same. gordan brown was a disaster with his deregulation of the financial sector & tony blair is a snake oil salesman who should count himself lucky not to be charged with war crimes. funny enough the last prime minister i had any time for was john major who at least seemed to be trying his best. Ok, I apologise for that, I too have little time for any particular party. no i don't have a problem with people who have been fortunate enough to have a private education. in fact i have five first cousins who have all been privately educated. they are all nice people who mean a great deal to me. their parents are fully aware of my views & in fact agree with me. however as things stand they know the best thing they can do is pay for their childrens education. i totally agree with them but would prefer if they didn't have to pay & that level of education was available to all. Ok, you have no problem with privately educated people, but your not keen on the advantage that private education gives people and wish everyone had the oppotunity. Surely as an ex business person, you understand how supply and demand works and that private education is such a commodity, and we can't all have what we can't afford. i don't believe in elites i believe in equality ,elite is however a word which people understand & is therefore usefull. I have no issue with you or anyone wanting equality, but if it has to be bought and paid for at the expense of others, how do you make it fair ? no i'm not bitter. other than the choice of football team which was chosen for me by my father i have nothing to be bitter about. no need to apologise. i have, i believe explained & have done so again above. the most effective way to have an impact on the future prosperity of this country is to invest in a major improvement in the educational standards of the state provided system. I don't disagree, but please tell me how much more investment the public can put into education, there is more money than ever going in now and we are overeducating many for the roles out their to fill .... IMHO ! at present only 7% of children receive a private education & yet they occupy over 50% of the top jobs. are you seriously suggesting that they just happen to be the most able,best suited people to fill these jobs? or is it more likely that the advantage they gained enabled them to take these positions ahead of more suitable people? seriously? do you honestly believe that that particular 7% just happened to be naturally more gifted than the other 93%? is that a reasonable example or sample for you? I hate to say your repeating yourself, but you are. Like it or not that is how it is, and that is not me being defeatist or negative. However, despite harping on about what you would like to change, how on earth do you suggest it's done ? Throwing more money at education is too simplistic, probably would not work looking at how we do things in this country anyway, and I don't see it happening in the current financial climate ! what i want to see is the very best wherever they come from, be given the opportunity to succeed to the benefit of all of us. Do we have the talent, to spot the talent ? how do i know that eton provides an education second to non in the world? err possibly because it's a well known fact? or maybe because if you bother to look up educational league tables it says so? also old boys include, the duke of wellington,robert walpole, shelley, robert boyle, ian fleming, alec douglas-home, david cameron & a whole plethora of that type of personnel. i would counter that lot by pointing out that the old boys from one of my six schools included the mooney gang, the garvin mob & patrick macgoohan but somehow i feel they may not be impressed. There are of course many, many people who have only had a state education but have gone on to succeed in their fields of expertise. There is no one size fits all for education or anything else. what i would like is that money saved from the huge waste in the public sector, the NHS the MOD the numerous useless quangos & the multitude of other totally useless projects we get involved in be taken & used to ensure the future prosperity of this country by ensuring that we make the best possible use of our assets which in the main is the population of the country. Well would you believe it, we have more in common than I first thought no michael you're not a realist, you're a defeatist. someone who's beaten before you even give it a try. i've met quite a few like you over the years. you can always see the difficulties, always see the drawbacks you can never see the opportunity & you're never prepared to take the chance. I have to disagree with the defeatist bit, talk is cheap, just look at the 'bull' that business and politics thrive on these days, a realist can solve problems not just complain about them ! don't worry about it, someone else will do it for you. won't be me, too old, but i'll be wishing them luck whilst no doubt you'll hope they fail to prove you right. That last bit tells me your far more defeatist than I am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 MICHAEL W. As i'm sure you are aware posters on this type of forum have normally never met & therefore have absolutely no idea as to each others character or personality. you proved this point by your request to me to 'chill out'. rather than being upset or annoyed by you i have in fact been amused by your continual failure to understand what i have been saying. at what point in this thread did i state that i would lay down a blueprint which, if implemented, would end the woes of the western world? All i said was that i think it might be a good idea if this country ensured that it made every effort to improve the current education system which is not at present good enough for a nation of this size & wealth when compared with other similar countries. failure to do so will mean that our present decline will continue & no doubt accelerate. we are now on post 55 or so of this thread , if you look back at post 39 you will see that i made the suggestion that grammar schools & technical schools be reintroduced as they provided excellent opportunities to the majority. that is as far as my suggestions go. it is perfectly reasonable to hold an opinion on matters without having to provide chapter & verse on how it should be achieved. I am for instance in favour of space exploration, as i feel it will provide a long term benefit to mankind. Thus far however i have resisted writing to NASA with my views on how they should proceed. You are very fond of asking questions michael, so how about answering a few? 1, Do you believe that everything is fine with the future of this country? 2, If not how would you propose going about improving things? 3, If the answer to question 1 was no, do you agree that those responsible were of the same ilk [see what i did there?]. as the present lot who are supposedly going to sort it out for us? 4, If yes to 3 then presumably a change is required, what do you propose. no blueprint required. finally michael saying i'm old is not defeatism, it's simply a fact, which makes me the one that's the realist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallisman Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 On the other hand, there are different fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_W Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 MICHAEL W. As i'm sure you are aware posters on this type of forum have normally never met & therefore have absolutely no idea as to each others character or personality. you proved this point by your request to me to 'chill out'. rather than being upset or annoyed by you i have in fact been amused by your continual failure to understand what i have been saying. You keep harping on about equality, particularly about educational opportunity I have repeatedly asked how you think it could be achieved, your answer was as vague as when I asked several posts back at what point in this thread did i state that i would lay down a blueprint which, if implemented, would end the woes of the western world? I never asked you to provide a blueprint, you suggested you had faith in people despite yourself stating the obvious shortcomings of people in general in an earlier post, a tad contradictory aren't you ? If you don't have the foggiest how your ideological thoughts could be implemented, why not say so ! All i said was that i think it might be a good idea if this country ensured that it made every effort to improve the current education system which is not at present good enough for a nation of this size & wealth when compared with other similar countries. failure to do so will mean that our present decline will continue & no doubt accelerate. Like I said, its not all about education IMHO, but hey you keep banging that drum ! we are now on post 55 or so of this thread , if you look back at post 39 you will see that i made the suggestion that grammar schools & technical schools be reintroduced as they provided excellent opportunities to the majority. that is as far as my suggestions go. it is perfectly reasonable to hold an opinion on matters without having to provide chapter & verse on how it should be achieved. Provided excellent opportunities back when those opportunities existed, what exactly would technical school do for those gaining employment in a call centre. Like I said in an earlier post let us create more jobs demanding technical skills first, that would be more logical surely ! I am for instance in favour of space exploration, as i feel it will provide a long term benefit to mankind. Thus far however i have resisted writing to NASA with my views on how they should proceed. You mean your too old to be bothered You are very fond of asking questions michael, so how about answering a few? 1, Do you believe that everything is fine with the future of this country? No I do not. 2, If not how would you propose going about improving things? Get people to think and learn for themselves, stop nannying and hand holding people, education has a purpose but remember it's not the be all and end all, and giving people delusional aspirations will improve nothing. 3, If the answer to question 1 was no, do you agree that those responsible were of the same ilk [see what i did there?]. as the present lot who are supposedly going to sort it out for us? Who are the present lot ? Are you talking about the people who run the country or our businesses, I think you put too much faith in people if you think sorting things out is someone elses responsibility, we all have a responsibility, starting at home with the parents, putting some social responsibility and some values back in the home. 4, If yes to 3 then presumably a change is required, what do you propose. no blueprint required. Not a change, but many changes are required, some of them cultural, you yourself made a comparison with our performance vs that of other countries earlier, I suggest we need to change socially in terms of what we do in our non working time first ...... the boozing, the drugs, the Jeremy Kyle on TV, the expecting handouts, benefits and playstation culture ..... I could go on, and on ...... finally michael saying i'm old is not defeatism, it's simply a fact, which makes me the one that's the realist. You suggested you were too old to do something ..... that's defeatist IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 good god michael & you accuse me of being an idealist with no idea how to implement things. get people to think & learn for themselves? HOW? get parents to instill social responsibility? HOW? change British cultural behavior which has been in existence since Chaucers day? HOW? I agree with all of those aims, you're right, if we could achieve them they would effect an improvement. but all of those aims are far more difficult than upgrading the education system, which funnily enough might be a way to start achieving your wish. as to my age i've reached a point where apart from helping fund a start up business i have no intentions of doing much other than enjoying myself. when i sold my business in 2000 i was somewhat aggrieved at the amount of personal tax i was being asked to pay as part of the deal. I asked my accountant how much in total the business [which had been started from nothing by my wife & I ] had generated in tax to the country. the answer was 'in excess of £3,000,000'. now many,many people have contributed more both in money terms & service to the country, maybe you are one of them, but that's me done. I still pay tax of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_W Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Round and round we go, what came first the chicken or the egg And you ran a successful business ...... must have been more good fortune than sense .... but hey that's the British way good god michael & you accuse me of being an idealist with no idea how to implement things. get people to think & learn for themselves? HOW? Do I need to go back to the caveman scenario again, man has an instinct to teach and learn ... thats how we evolved before our taxes funded education (state or public). get parents to instill social responsibility? HOW? Stop nannying people ... schools can't take up the slack from bad irresponsible parenting, so education at school becomes difficult for many from an early age .... it ain't always been this way, discipline is one factor. change British cultural behavior which has been in existence since Chaucers day? HOW? With great difficulty, as far as the drinking goes, but the Jeremy Kyle and kids sat at home on the playstation stuff does not go back to Chaucer. I agree with all of those aims, you're right, if we could achieve them they would effect an improvement. but all of those aims are far more difficult than upgrading the education system, which funnily enough might be a way to start achieving your wish. Are they ? I beg to differ, besides upgrading our education system is not as easy as it sounds, it's not just a case of more money those doing the teaching would need teaching or would need to come from other backgrounds to impliment vocational education ...... like I said chicken and egg ! as to my age i've reached a point where apart from helping fund a start up business i have no intentions of doing much other than enjoying myself. when i sold my business in 2000 i was somewhat aggrieved at the amount of personal tax i was being asked to pay as part of the deal. I asked my accountant how much in total the business [which had been started from nothing by my wife & I ] had generated in tax to the country. the answer was 'in excess of £3,000,000'. now many,many people have contributed more both in money terms & service to the country, maybe you are one of them, but that's me done. I still pay tax of course. Well done you, sounds pretty successful for someone without a priveleged education, how about you educating or advising our young people who have not had a fair crack, on setting up or running a business .... on a voluntary basis of course ..... only joking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 tell me michael, just as a matter of interest, what is it that you do? after all you don't seem to have any problems giving other people advice on what they should do with their time. presumably you are contributing hugely to the betterment of society otherwise you wouldn't be so quick with the advice would you.? and for your information my success in business owed very little to luck & a great deal to hard work & having the balls to take a chance. i'm sure you're aware of that really, as you no doubt hold down a hugely responsible position. Don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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