Should poor people really have children?

[MrSmith]

No mate, I don't want anecdotal evidence. We could all probably identify somebody who we thought was popping out kids for benefits.

 

I want solid evidence that shows how much of welfare spend is wasted by people doing this. I suspect it is going to be a miniscule percentage of the total but I'm happy to be proven wrong. And all that will take is some proper evidence. Not seen any yet.

 

I doubt they collect just data.

[ECCOnoob]

That's not evidence. That's right wing press articles that feed your prejudices. Even the telegraph one is nutty - read the first comment after the article..

 

ding ding ding.

 

What a predictable response "...ohh its not fact its just right wing press"

 

Two of those articles (if you bothered to read them) are extracted from Closer magazine articles interviewing the said benefit receipiants. So, directly from the horses mouth is not facts now is it. I also dont think Closer mazagine is pitch fork, foamy mouthed right wing press is it.

 

Nice try.

[gnvqsos]

You clearly have no idea about economics.

What a shame.

 

Let me ask you something, if you were poor and couldnt afford the basics like food, a roof over your head or toothpaste, would you feel its your right to have a child?

Forget the fact you cant pay for it.

Forget the fact that its the taxpayer who will pick up the tab.

Forget it all.

Do you feel it was your right to have a child if you wanted one bad enough?

 

Are you Malthusian-if you know something about the subject you should be able to comment.

[I1L2T3]

ding ding ding.

 

What a predictable response "...ohh its not fact its just right wing press"

 

Two of those articles (if you bothered to read them) are extracted from Closer magazine articles interviewing the said benefit receipiants. So, directly from the horses mouth is not facts now is it. I also dont think Closer mazagine is pitch fork, foamy mouthed right wing press is it.

 

Nice try.

 

The Closer articles are just anecdotal.

 

I see it as being a bit like the stories about the £2000 a week rent. It turned out very few people actually claimed that amount.

 

It's just like the stories about people claiming £26k+ in benefits. Again it turned out they were but a tiny fraction of the numbers of welfare claimants.

 

So where is the solid evidence of what you are claiming? Where can we see something that will back up your claims apart from articles in tittle-tattle magazines that are regurgitated by the right-wing press?

[Gleadly]

I'm not sure when Child Benefit was first introduced, however, until the 1960's it was only for the 2nd or subsequent child.

 

Everyone is entitled to have children but, like everything else, they should only have what they can afford.

 

It is the responsibility of the parents to provide for their own children.

[ECCOnoob]

The Closer articles are just anecdotal.

 

I see it as being a bit like the stories about the £2000 a week rent. It turned out very few people actually claimed that amount.

 

It's just like the stories about people claiming £26k+ in benefits. Again it turned out they were but a tiny fraction of the numbers of welfare claimants.

 

So where is the solid evidence of what you are claiming? Where can we see something that will back up your claims apart from articles in tittle-tattle magazines that are regurgitated by the right-wing press?

 

I have not claimed anything. You did that.

 

You asked for evidence. I have provided some. Its an interview from the persons involved. If you want something that in YOUR opinion is more "solid" trott off and find some.

 

So what if its only showing what you claim is a "tiny fraction" of benefit claimants. It does not mean that my points are any less valid. I could not give a toss if its 2 people doing this or 2000. I dont want to be funding people's selfish breading habits. There are far more important things for the already dry public purse to be spending things on and these examples need to be wiped out immediatley.

 

Capping is a very sensible way of doing that. It discouages serial breaders like this and makes other more reasonable people think very carefully about the RESPONSIBILITIES involved when having a child.

 

Prey tell oh wise one, what exactly is the disincentive at the moment? Morons will always just lie back and let the state sort everything out if you allow it. So how would you propose we stop things like this happening?

[Chris_Sleeps]

Why are people trying to rationalise having children, like it is something only sensible people should do?

 

The truth is that we are evolutionarily programmed to procreate. We do it at all costs, because our genes are more important than ourselves. Any debate ignoring this is silly. Poor people have children because that is what animals do, they have children. Nothing else matters. No amount of housing or food or foreign holidays will make that less of a truth.

[tinfoilhat]

The Closer articles are just anecdotal.

 

I see it as being a bit like the stories about the £2000 a week rent. It turned out very few people actually claimed that amount.

 

It's just like the stories about people claiming £26k+ in benefits. Again it turned out they were but a tiny fraction of the numbers of welfare claimants.

 

So where is the solid evidence of what you are claiming? Where can we see something that will back up your claims apart from articles in tittle-tattle magazines that are regurgitated by the right-wing press?

 

I can't find a poll, or any documentation that it exists at all - are you saying it therefore doesn't happen ?

[I1L2T3]

I have not claimed anything. You did that.

 

You asked for evidence. I have provided some. Its an interview from the persons involved. If you want something that in YOUR opinion is more "solid" trott off and find some.

 

So what if its only showing what you claim is a "tiny fraction" of benefit claimants. It does not mean that my points are any less valid. I could not give a toss if its 2 people doing this or 2000. I dont want to be funding people's selfish breading habits. There are far more important things for the already dry public purse to be spending things on and these examples need to be wiped out immediatley.

 

Capping is a very sensible way of doing that. It discouages serial breaders like this and makes other more reasonable people think very carefully about the RESPONSIBILITIES involved when having a child.

 

Prey tell oh wise one, what exactly is the disincentive at the moment? Morons will always just lie back and let the state sort everything out if you allow it. So how would you propose we stop things like this happening?

 

There's no need to get rattled. The tone of your response is a touch off, and a bit personal. But anyway, all you've done really is provide some anecdotal evidence. I'm not disagreeing that this could be happening. I would just rather see better evidence than sensationalist articles in magazines and the right wing press.

 

What I'm asking for really is evidence of the scale of it. I'm minded to believe that in terms of overall welfare spend it will be very minimal, perhaps a small fraction of 1%. And if I'm right I'd suggest that ideally we focus on other much bigger welfare issues like pensions costs and housing benefits costs.

 

But if I was to put forward ideas for sorting this out then the first step would have to be educating people about their choices in life, maybe improved services around contraception and that kind of thing, and of course looking at how to provide suitable employment opportunities. What would you do?

 

---------- Post added 03-03-2013 at 19:25 ----------

 

I can't find a poll, or any documentation that it exists at all - are you saying it therefore doesn't happen ?

 

Not at all. If you read my posts above I very clearly state it could happen.

 

What I'm doing is questioning the extent of it, and the costs in terms of welfare. My belief is that the costs will be minimal compared to other sreas of welfare spending.

 

I'm basically trying to get the evidence to see if I should get worked up by it. As it is there is no evidence provided on this thread that indicates the scale of the problem, so IMO no point in getting too excited.

[MrSmith]

There's no need to get rattled. The tone of your response is a touch off, and a bit personal. But anyway, all you've done really is provide some anecdotal evidence. I'm not disagreeing that this could be happening. I would just rather see better evidence than sensationalist articles in magazines and the right wing press.

 

What I'm asking for really is evidence of the scale of it. I'm minded to believe that in terms of overall welfare spend it will be very minimal, perhaps a small fraction of 1%. And if I'm right I'd suggest that ideally we focus on other much bigger welfare issues like pensions costs and housing benefits costs.

 

But if I was to put forward ideas for sorting this out then the first step would have to be educating people about their choices in life, maybe improved services around contraception and that kind of thing, and of course looking at how to provide suitable employment opportunities. What would you do?

 

You do understand that people having lots of kids they can't afford also increases housing costs and pension costs?