Are our inner cities isolating the remaining indigenous populous?

[boyfriday]

I think it's recent immigrants that's the problem. As you have pointed London has always had little enclaves on immigrants since the year dot.

But immigrants have always been a problem to certain sections of the indigenous community..especially in London. The passage of time seems to dim our memories but I certainly remember the "No Blacks, No Irish" signs in hotel and guest house windows. Mosley and his Blackshirts also seemed to have a problem with Jews if you remember-brought to life in the famous battle of Cable Street in London's east end in 1936.

I've never had a problem in certain parts of south london despite being the only white face in the room, they were very hospitable and we had laugh with the majority. Judging by the fact they mostly had sarf London accents they were obviously 2nd generation up.

Ironically I'd say that many of the anti social problems seen in Muslim and other immigrant communities is mainly amongst those of the 2nd generation and up, their parents and grandparents who came here 40/50 years ago wouldn't say boo to a goose.

Go a few miles east and there were no London accents, the place was a tip, the people, with one notable exception, were hostile and I couldn't wait to leave. To top it off the cheque bounced.

Well I still get that in some areas of Barnsley!

It's not about colour or religion.

Totally agree, it's about people who choose not to want to get on with each other, black, white, Christian and Muslim.

[tinfoilhat]

But immigrants have always been a problem to certain sections of the indigenous community..especially in London. The passage of time seems to dim our memories but I certainly remember the "No Blacks, No Irish" signs in hotel and guest house windows. Mosley and his Blackshirts also seemed to have a problem with Jews if you remember-brought to life in the famous battle of Cable Street in London's east end in 1936.

Ironically I'd say that many of the anti social problems seen in Muslim and other immigrant communities is mainly amongst those of the 2nd generation and up, their parents and grandparents who came here 40/50 years ago wouldn't say boo to a goose.

Well I still get that in some areas of Barnsley!

Totally agree, it's about people who choose not to want to get on with each other, black, white, Christian and Muslim.

 

Fair points on the whole, but the last line is bang on. People do need to want to get along and that goes both ways, which includes learning the language respecting the locals (of all colours) and not making the place in ****hole. That also applies to expats in Spain !!!!

[frededwards]

I suspect that most people are relatively relaxed about living in a multi-racial society.

 

It's the multi-culturalism and the self imposed ghettoisation by certain communities that many people have a visceral objection to.

[Shogun]

I don't care what colour there skin is if they come here they should have some form of skill or trade that can contribute to the country,there are far to many scrounging thieving cheating foreigners in this country who should not be here in the first place we have enough of our own,they pay nothing to society filter any money they get hold of back to where they come from,social security should only be payed to people who were originally born in this country or at least payed 5 years tax,they come here laughing at us they think we are a soft touch,I don't know any other country in the world where you can turn up claim poverty or oppression get money get a house,no wander these people will go through loads of different country's just to get here they certainly don't come here for the weather,in the past when we had Jews West India and Asian people coming here they all came to work and do a job they all contributed something to the country, now they just seem to be able to walk in take every thing make a **** hole of the place and breed like tribbles and the government just seems to do very little about it.

[johncocker]

A lot of people in minority communities are being kept trapped in social systems that oppress them with little prospect of freedom because well meaning whites allow so-called "community leaders" (who elected them exactly, and who are they acountable to?) to call the shots,.

So we have areas where the writ of British law does not run; where young poeple are forced into consanguinious marriages ; where people who wish to change their religion are persecuted; where girls who transgress social norms from backward societies half a world away are beaten and even killed and the state turns a blind eye.

These are areas where it is at best unpleasant if not unsafe to be an outsider and where women cannot walk in safety because by definition they are "whores" by definition of their race and the fact that they do not subscribe to the oppressive social norms of the ghetto community.

This is a reality in some major areas of several British cities. If you simply deny it you are leaving people to their fate, denying them their citizenship and accepting a form of apartheid. It is in fact a form of soft racism - the racism of low expectations.

We cannot and should not alter our social fabric to accomodate backward attuitudes.

[andygardener]

You make a good point but I think a lot of people's perception of immigrants is based on what they look like superficially. I'm sure the thousands of foreign students who come here and pay for the privilege are routinely mistaken for scrounging foreigners by those who simply equate people who don't look like them in those terms.

 

I used to work with an old Jewish guy, he anglicised his name when he came to the UK during the war in order to improve his chances of acceptance, he would have been unable to do that if he'd been a different skin colour!

 

Obviously a lot of people (the Royal family included) anglicised German names last century due to a not unreasonable anti-German feeling from 1914 onwards. However it's not only white people that can do that, I have quite a number of Chinese and Indian health and education professionals as customers and they to a man use anglicised names. That's merely from my experience so it may not be that common a thing but they are all certainly well integrated into British society so I don't accept that skin colour is a bar to integration and "full Britishness" as it were.

 

I do think some members of certain groups of immigrants can sometimes emphasise their differences through things like dress and cultural behaviour that is not acceptable here which unsurprisingly leads to them not being welcomed by mainstream society and leads to ghetoisation which is unhealthy.

[boyfriday]

I do think some members of certain groups of immigrants can sometimes emphasise their differences through things like dress and cultural behaviour that is not acceptable here which unsurprisingly leads to them not being welcomed by mainstream society and leads to ghetoisation which is unhealthy.

 

Im afraid I don't buy into the notion that immigrants should behave and dress like 'we' do, there's enough social/cultural diversity within the indigenous population who don't universally conform to a standard form of dress or behaviour.

 

I don't form opinions about a woman wearing a burka any more than I do a skinhead wearing Doc Martin's and drainpipe jeans. What matters is the content of their personalities. I've met burka clad women I don't like and skinheads that I do and vice versa.

[Eater Sundae]

When people come to a different country they feel vulnerable (particularly if they are refugees, possible less so if they are economic migrants). But either way it is human nature to stick with your own, initially. Also, they are likely to be poor, be starting from scratch, and need to live where it is cheap.

 

They therefore form what seems like a ghetto.

 

Once they have acclimatised and feel more comfortable, and possibly but not necessarily after another generation or two has grown up here, some will move on – probably the more successful and prosperous first. But even the less prosperous will slowly spread out into “normal”, ie non-ghetto areas.

 

As the area empties of its old immigrants, then a new and different set arrives, and so it goes on. The earlier occupiers of the ghetto move away and mix with the indigenous population.

 

Huguenots are a very good example of this. Jews less so, but still with similarities. They had the advantage that once they spoke English without a foreign accent (ie 2nd generation), and possibly anglicised their name, then who would know where their ancestors came from so it would never even be considered for day to day existence.

 

However, when West Indians started to arrive in numbers, the situation changed. Despite being very British, they clearly looked different. If they were to be accepted it would be necessary for the indigenous population to change (whereas it hadn’t been as important before). This takes time, and education, and in some cases for generations to die off and be replaced. Despite this, people of West Indian descent have assimilated and moved away. But it has taken 50 or 60 years, and it is still happening.

 

Larger scale Immigration from the Indian Sub-Continent started later so is still at an earlier stage. Many are still at the ghetto stage, but that doesn’t mean that they are not going through the same stages as other immigrant groups.

 

Then we have the recent influx from eastern Europe. Some will be here working for a short period, but no doubt some will stay and make a life here. These are still 1st generation, and speak differently. If they stay and have families here than, IMO, they will soon assimilate.

 

I think we have always had ghettos and always will, but today’s bête noire will become tomorrow’s schoolteacher, local councillor or doctor, and we’ll have a different group of recent immigrants to fear and hate. Until they in turn are absorbed into society as a whole. And so it goes on. Of course, some of the immigrants do not become teachers, councillors or doctors. Some finish up with little education, some with poor jobs, and some with no jobs at all – just like the members of every other ethnic or political group.

 

The big problem with eastern Europeans and to a lesser extent Asians, is that in the whole scheme of things their immigration was and is recent. Within a few more generations, they will no longer be seen as a problem, provided we (ie society as a whole) welcomes their wish to simply get on with their lives as a part of British society.

[andygardener]

Im afraid I don't buy into the notion that immigrants should behave and dress like 'we' do, there's enough social/cultural diversity within the indigenous population who don't universally conform to a standard form of dress or behaviour.

 

I don't form opinions about a woman wearing a burka any more than I do a skinhead wearing Doc Martin's and drainpipe jeans. What matters is the content of their personalities. I've met burka clad women I don't like and skinheads that I do and vice versa.

 

I'm not suggesting they have to dress in a certain way, merely that those that choose to dress in a manner which emphasises where they came from and not where they are may have a harder time integrating than those who adopt more British forms of attire, which as you point out is a very broad church with something for everyone. The burqua is an extreme example as it clearly identifies an extremist strain of islamic interpretation so not a good benchmark but there are lots more innocuous forms of garb which just emphasise the wearer as "foreign" - which is fine, but not going to be particularly helpful in integrating.

[Shogun]

When people come to a different country they feel vulnerable (particularly if they are refugees, possible less so if they are economic migrants). But either way it is human nature to stick with your own, initially. Also, they are likely to be poor, be starting from scratch, and need to live where it is cheap.

 

They therefore form what seems like a ghetto.

 

Once they have acclimatised and feel more comfortable, and possibly but not necessarily after another generation or two has grown up here, some will move on – probably the more successful and prosperous first. But even the less prosperous will slowly spread out into “normal”, ie non-ghetto areas.

 

As the area empties of its old immigrants, then a new and different set arrives, and so it goes on. The earlier occupiers of the ghetto move away and mix with the indigenous population.

 

Huguenots are a very good example of this. Jews less so, but still with similarities. They had the advantage that once they spoke English without a foreign accent (ie 2nd generation), and possibly anglicised their name, then who would know where their ancestors came from so it would never even be considered for day to day existence.

 

However, when West Indians started to arrive in numbers, the situation changed. Despite being very British, they clearly looked different. If they were to be accepted it would be necessary for the indigenous population to change (whereas it hadn’t been as important before). This takes time, and education, and in some cases for generations to die off and be replaced. Despite this, people of West Indian descent have assimilated and moved away. But it has taken 50 or 60 years, and it is still happening.

 

Larger scale Immigration from the Indian Sub-Continent started later so is still at an earlier stage. Many are still at the ghetto stage, but that doesn’t mean that they are not going through the same stages as other immigrant groups.

 

Then we have the recent influx from eastern Europe. Some will be here working for a short period, but no doubt some will stay and make a life here. These are still 1st generation, and speak differently. If they stay and have families here than, IMO, they will soon assimilate.

 

I think we have always had ghettos and always will, but today’s bête noire will become tomorrow’s schoolteacher, local councillor or doctor, and we’ll have a different group of recent immigrants to fear and hate. Until they in turn are absorbed into society as a whole. And so it goes on. Of course, some of the immigrants do not become teachers, councillors or doctors. Some finish up with little education, some with poor jobs, and some with no jobs at all – just like the members of every other ethnic or political group.

 

The big problem with eastern Europeans and to a lesser extent Asians, is that in the whole scheme of things their immigration was and is recent. Within a few more generations, they will no longer be seen as a problem, provided we (ie society as a whole) welcomes their wish to simply get on with their lives as a part of British society.

Some good points there,but if they don't have anything to offer this country they should not be allowed here in the first place,we have enough of our own to look after, we are not a charity for the rest of the world,the past few influx of migrants came here to work and contributed to the country,now all we get are scroungers and the scum of these places who have no intention of fitting in with our society and are just here for a free ride.