Funding for FE Courses

[Rupert_Baehr]

Begrudging people's education is wrong, as going off topic is. The original debate is would the council back down on council tax benefit reform if everyone refused to pay it...

 

As Sheff1johnny said the council tax thread had been taken 'off topic' so here's a thread to debate possible alternative funding methods:

 

Indeed it is. There are a lot more players on the field nowadays than there were 40 or 50 years ago, too.

 

At that time, competition for university places was fierce and somewhere around 5% of people made it to university. In the days when there were grants, a student only got a grant if he or she managed to win a place on a course.

 

There simply isn't enough money to provide free university places for everybody. What would you think about a grant system which:

 

1. Decided how many graduates the country needed in a given discipline in any one year.

 

2. Provided grants to fund that number of the best-performing candidates.

 

If the country needed 1000 doctors, then the top 1000 candidates (plus an allowance for attrition) would be given places and given grants.

 

If the country needed 1000 underwater basket-weavers, then the top 1000 candidates (plus an allowance for attrition) would be given places and given grants.

 

If the country didn't need 1000 underwater basket weavers, but there were 2000 people wanting to do a degree in underwater basket weaving because after all 'a degree is a degree' (even if the employers don't seem to think so) then those 2000 candidates should be allowed to pay the full cost of their courses from their own pockets ... if they really think that would be a good idea.

 

Could it be that for far too many years, young people have been misled into thinking that it doesn't matter what you do at university - just as long as you get a degree? Any degree.

 

It means that those who had free grants should feel some sympathy for students who are having it harder then they did.

 

They're having it different - but are they really having it harder? Do many students (who have passed their A-levels) get refused a place at uni?

 

Do students with "2 'F's and a 'U' " no longer get a place on a foundation course, which leads into a [sort-of] degree? - Were their predecessors treated like that?

 

Perhaps the ones who took advantage of those grants have done so well that their taxes are a huge help to the current economy?

 

Once university was seen as something that almost every young person should experience, it was just a matter of time before the powers that be realised the previous subsidies to a few, were no longer affordable to the many.

 

Forty years ago there were grants - but those grants were means-tested and before a student could get one, (s)he had to compete for - and win - a place on a course.

 

If a student applied to half a dozen (or so) universities and didn't get in, nobody said: "Oh it doesn't matter - go into clearing and somebody somewhere will give you a place on a course doing something." Life simply was not like that.

 

There were grants. There were also sponsorships. A potential student could apply to a company /organisation for sposnsorship and if successful, the company would pay the student some money, the student would probably be obliged to work for the company during the summer break (and possible for a part of the Christmas and Easter breaks too) and would, on graduation, be required to work for the company for a fixed period.

 

I had such a sponsorship. The terms were simple. "On qualification, we will employ you for a minimum of 5 years. During that period, you will pay us £200 each year [and £200 was a significant sum in the 1960's!) towards the cost of your training. If you decide not to work for us you will pay us £1000 'spot cash'. If we decide we no longer need your services you may leave owing us nothing."

 

There were a number of other organisations which provided training (and a job!) in return for a number of years' work commitment.

 

The NHS - the biggest employer in the UK - can't obtain sufficient qualified staff from the local population.

 

Why not? Why can't the UK train (and retain) doctors and nurses?

 

There is, I understand, an acute shortage of good science and engineering graduates in the UK (and elsewhere, too.)

 

Why is that?

 

Perhaps it's time that the people running the Education system tailored it to encourage it to provide an adequate number of people with the qualifications required by society?

 

The Hungarians are having a few problems at the moment. Their government has decided that any student who receives state sponsorship to study for a qualification will work in that field in Hungary for a number of years on graduation. (Given the history of sponsorship in the UK, that doesn't sound unreasonable to me.)

 

Does everybody need to go to university? - I suggest not.

 

Under the German Secondary school system, some students (but far fewer than in the UK) follow a track which will lead to University and the remainder follow a track which leads to Technical or Trade School or Advanced vocational training.

 

Perhaps students in the UK should be encouraged to (and offered the opportunity to) attend technical or trade schools?

 

(I've heard a number of people say: "I want to be a carpenter/plumber/ electrician. I can get a place at college, but I need to be employed by a tradesman to do the college course."

 

Perhaps the state should sponsor those students?

[mikem8634]

The point of mine that you have quoted above related to finances and funding not places.

 

Current students face debt that some previous students did not. In that context they are having a harder time.

[truman]

The point of mine that you have quoted above related to finances and funding not places.

 

Current students face debt that some previous students did not. In that context they are having a harder time.

 

But are having a lot easier time actually getting into uni..students pay nothing up front and only start repaying when they are earning a reasonable amount..do you think it's wrong to expect someone to invest in their own future?

[L00b]

Something you posted caught my attention - apologies if I'm taking it out of context.

It means that those who had free grants should feel some sympathy for students who are having it harder then they did.

I had a free grant of sorts (the EU paid my UK Uni fees). To get that, I had to move countries, study and pass exams in a different language, live a long way away from 'home'. Entirely my own decision, and initiative: I could have 'stayed home' and would not have enjoyed any grants at all. But then, I wouldn't have had a job, with a paid-for 'home degree' or not.

 

In that context, I have -precisely- zero sympathy: the system is still there and available, if UK students feel hard-done by at home, they are guaranteed free passage to anywhere else in the EU, and provided they can enrol into a (real/proper) University there, pretty much guaranteed to be funded by the EU. Funding problem solved - at least for them, let the Gvt worry about the EU funding tab.

 

Of course, that pre-supposes actually learning a foreign language to the requisite level in their earlier years (and I am reliably informed the basic State schooling in the Uk does so...so long as students actually bother with it, rather than treat German/French/Spanish/Italian/etc. as an "unworthy" subject). Hey-ho, as with everything else in life, if you want the opportunities, you have to lay the foundations for them.

 

There comes a point in everybody's life where they have to start standing on their two feet and not always expect the State to provide this-that-the-other-and-the-rest: I'd say Uni is around that time, by then the State has done its bit getting them to that stage of education and personal development.

 

As for the thread proper, I agree with Ni...erm, Rupert Most states I know which have gone down the route of the degree-for-all for political motivations, have the exact same problems and face the exact same choices.

[Mister M]

I didn't read the previous thread that was cut, but many FE students now are having to pay for their FE courses through loans - before they even think about loans to go on to HE.

 

I appreciate the points made above about moving to different countries to get a free education, and well done for having the get up and go to do this. But people's circumstances are very different.

But whatever that person's circumstances, this forum is full of people with zero sympathy for people from different countries using UK public services like education

[mikem8634]

But are having a lot easier time actually getting into uni..students pay nothing up front and only start repaying when they are earning a reasonable amount..do you think it's wrong to expect someone to invest in their own future?

 

Something you posted caught my attention - apologies if I'm taking it out of context.I had a free grant of sorts (the EU paid my UK Uni fees). To get that, I had to move countries, study and pass exams in a different language, live a long way away from 'home'. Entirely my own decision, and initiative: I could have 'stayed home' and would not have enjoyed any grants at all. But then, I wouldn't have had a job, with a paid-for 'home degree' or not.

 

In that context, I have -precisely- zero sympathy: the system is still there and available, if UK students feel hard-done by at home, they are guaranteed free passage to anywhere else in the EU, and provided they can enrol into a (real/proper) University there, pretty much guaranteed to be funded by the EU. Funding problem solved - at least for them, let the Gvt worry about the EU funding tab.

 

Of course, that pre-supposes actually learning a foreign language to the requisite level in their earlier years (and I am reliably informed the basic State schooling in the Uk does so...so long as students actually bother with it, rather than treat German/French/Spanish/Italian/etc. as an "unworthy" subject). Hey-ho, as with everything else in life, if you want the opportunities, you have to lay the foundations for them.

 

There comes a point in everybody's life where they have to start standing on their two feet and not always expect the State to provide this-that-the-other-and-the-rest: I'd say Uni is around that time, by then the State has done its bit getting them to that stage of education and personal development.

 

As for the thread proper, I agree with Ni...erm, Rupert Most states I know which have gone down the route of the degree-for-all for political motivations, have the exact same problems and face the exact same choices.

 

For clarification, I am not suggesting that there should be any changes made to the way university education is funded. I was simply pointing out that those of us who enjoyed the grant system should appreciate that, from a financial point of view, current students have a less easy ride.