The Cartoon protests megathread

[youwhatref]

For those who believe the "PC brigade are ruining the country" and their is "one law for them, another law for us" have a look at this from the Institute for Public Policy Research:

 

.

 

Norbert, you're always going to get some of this poor information thrown around and i dont blame anyone for jumping on the story as they believed it to be true.

 

But the PC brigade still exists and doesn't help things

[wendygs]

Wikipedia definition for Dogma, faith, and logic which should hopefully address some of the issues you've raised and as I've noticed a tendency on this forum to ignore links to other sites I've taken the liberty of doing a cut and paste on to this forum which I hope is helpful and will lead to properly informed debate.

Cheers flower

 

 

There are some conceptual similarities between dogma and the axioms used as the starting point for logical analysis. Axioms may be thought of as concepts or "givens" so fundamental that disputing them would be unimaginable; dogmata are also fundamental (e.g. "God exists") yet incorporate also the larger set of conclusions that comprise the (religious) field of thought (e.g. "God created the universe"). Axioms are propositions not subject to proof or disproof, or are statements accepted on their own merits. Dogmata might be thought to be more complex, the product of other proofs. Philosophy and theology find ways to evaluate all statements, whether classified as axioms or dogmata.

 

Religious dogmata, properly conceived, reach back to proofs other than themselves, and ultimately to faith. Perhaps the pinnacle of organized exposition of theological dogma is the Summa Theologiae by Thomas Aquinas, who proposes this relationship between faith and objection: "If our opponent believes nothing of divine revelation, there is no longer any means of proving the articles of faith by reasoning, but only of answering his objections — if he has any — against faith" (I 1 ..

[edit]

 

Dogma in religion

 

Dogmata are found in many religions such as Christianity and Islam, where they are considered core principles that must be upheld by all followers of that religion. As a fundamental element of religion, the term "dogma" is assigned to those theological tenets which are considered to be well demonstrated, such that their proposed disputation or revision effectively means that a person no longer accepts the given religion as his or her own, or has entered into a period of personal doubt. Dogma is distinguished from theological opinion regarding those things considered less well-known. Dogmata may be clarified and elaborated but not contradicted in novel teachings (e.g., Galatians 1:8-9). Rejection of dogma is considered heresy and may lead to expulsion from the religious group, although in the Christian Gospels this is not done rashly (e.g. Mt 18:15-17).

 

For most of Eastern Christianity, the dogmata are contained in the Nicene Creed and the first two, three, or seven ecumenical councils (depending on whether one is a Nestorian, a Monophysite, or an Eastern Orthodox Christian). Roman Catholics also hold as dogma the decisions of 14 later ecumenical councils and a couple decrees promulgated by popes exercising papal infallibility (see, e.g., immaculate conception). Protestants to differing degrees affirm portions of these dogmata, and often rely on sect-specific 'Statements of Faith' which summarize their chosen dogmata (see, e.g., Eucharist).

 

In Islam, the dogmatic principles are contained in the aqidah.

 

Dogma is referred to as Doctrine inside many Christian religions.

[edit]

 

Dogma outside of religion

 

Many non-religious beliefs are often described as dogmata, for example in the fields of politics or philosophy, as well as within society itself. The term dogmatism carries the implication that people are upholding their beliefs in an unthinking and conformist fashion. Dogmata are thought to be anathema to science and scientific analysis although one could argue that the scientific method itself is a dogma for many scientists. In a similar way in philosophies such as rationalism and skepticism, although metaphysical considerations are normally not explicit in those fields, traditional religious dogmas tend to be rejected while unexamined presuppositions are sometimes upheld.

 

When used today, the word 'dogma' is usually used in a negative and derogatory manner, for example when employees talk about unpopular company policies. Other examples often come from political or national statements, an example would be article 1 section 3 of the United Nations Declaration of Principles on Tolerance:

 

1.3 Tolerance is the responsibility that upholds human rights, pluralism (including cultural pluralism), democracy and the rule of law. It involves the rejection of dogmatism and absolutism and affirms the standards set out in international human rights instruments. (Bolding added in for emphasis)

[Zaytsev]

The guy apoligises! So he flamin should, he deserves arresting and booting out of the country. Insensitive is a big understatement IMO.

 

I'm sure it wont be the last time he demonstrates in a controversail way and i hope his mosque mad it's intentions clear well before the guy apologised.

 

Considering the warnings from the Police stating that you risk being shot carrying fake or toy guns in the street I would hazard a guess that the chap in question is not the brightest button in the box:loopy:

 

He should consider himself fortunate, surely the Police would have been more than justified in shooting him, as he appeared to be carrying explosives, than the Brazilian on the Tube. I wonder if there would have been as much of an outcry in this instance.

[Zaytsev]

Wikipedia definition for Dogma, faith, and logic which should hopefully address some of the issues you've raised and as I've noticed a tendency on this forum to ignore links to other sites I've taken the liberty of doing a cut and paste on to this forum which I hope is helpful and will lead to properly informed debate.

Cheers flower

 

 

There are some conceptual similarities between dogma and the axioms used as the starting point for logical analysis. Axioms may be thought of as concepts or "givens" so fundamental that disputing them would be unimaginable; dogmata are also fundamental (e.g. "God exists") yet incorporate also the larger set of conclusions that comprise the (religious) field of thought (e.g. "God created the universe"). Axioms are propositions not subject to proof or disproof, or are statements accepted on their own merits. Dogmata might be thought to be more complex, the product of other proofs. Philosophy and theology find ways to evaluate all statements, whether classified as axioms or dogmata.

 

Religious dogmata, properly conceived, reach back to proofs other than themselves, and ultimately to faith. Perhaps the pinnacle of organized exposition of theological dogma is the Summa Theologiae by Thomas Aquinas, who proposes this relationship between faith and objection: "If our opponent believes nothing of divine revelation, there is no longer any means of proving the articles of faith by reasoning, but only of answering his objections — if he has any — against faith" (I 1 ..

[edit]

 

Dogma in religion

 

Dogmata are found in many religions such as Christianity and Islam, where they are considered core principles that must be upheld by all followers of that religion. As a fundamental element of religion, the term "dogma" is assigned to those theological tenets which are considered to be well demonstrated, such that their proposed disputation or revision effectively means that a person no longer accepts the given religion as his or her own, or has entered into a period of personal doubt. Dogma is distinguished from theological opinion regarding those things considered less well-known. Dogmata may be clarified and elaborated but not contradicted in novel teachings (e.g., Galatians 1:8-9). Rejection of dogma is considered heresy and may lead to expulsion from the religious group, although in the Christian Gospels this is not done rashly (e.g. Mt 18:15-17).

 

For most of Eastern Christianity, the dogmata are contained in the Nicene Creed and the first two, three, or seven ecumenical councils (depending on whether one is a Nestorian, a Monophysite, or an Eastern Orthodox Christian). Roman Catholics also hold as dogma the decisions of 14 later ecumenical councils and a couple decrees promulgated by popes exercising papal infallibility (see, e.g., immaculate conception). Protestants to differing degrees affirm portions of these dogmata, and often rely on sect-specific 'Statements of Faith' which summarize their chosen dogmata (see, e.g., Eucharist).

 

In Islam, the dogmatic principles are contained in the aqidah.

 

Dogma is referred to as Doctrine inside many Christian religions.

[edit]

 

Dogma outside of religion

 

Many non-religious beliefs are often described as dogmata, for example in the fields of politics or philosophy, as well as within society itself. The term dogmatism carries the implication that people are upholding their beliefs in an unthinking and conformist fashion. Dogmata are thought to be anathema to science and scientific analysis although one could argue that the scientific method itself is a dogma for many scientists. In a similar way in philosophies such as rationalism and skepticism, although metaphysical considerations are normally not explicit in those fields, traditional religious dogmas tend to be rejected while unexamined presuppositions are sometimes upheld.

 

When used today, the word 'dogma' is usually used in a negative and derogatory manner, for example when employees talk about unpopular company policies. Other examples often come from political or national statements, an example would be article 1 section 3 of the United Nations Declaration of Principles on Tolerance:

 

1.3 Tolerance is the responsibility that upholds human rights, pluralism (including cultural pluralism), democracy and the rule of law. It involves the rejection of dogmatism and absolutism and affirms the standards set out in international human rights instruments. (Bolding added in for emphasis)

 

 

Could you two lovebirds PM each other rather than carrying on your theological jousting on here:D

[TeaFan]

Wikipedia definition for Dogma, faith, and logic which should hopefully address some of the issues you've raised and as I've noticed a tendency on this forum to ignore links to other sites I've taken the liberty of doing a cut and paste on to this forum which I hope is helpful and will lead to properly informed debate.

Cheers flower

 

 

 

Yeah, thanks, I have studied philosophy, and know how to reduce to the basic a priori truths on which to base a premise.

[t020]

Here's an interesting article in today's Guardian

 

Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons

 

Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that first published the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have caused a storm of protest throughout the Islamic world, refused to run drawings lampooning Jesus Christ, it has emerged today.

 

The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny.

 

In April 2003, Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons dealing with the resurrection of Christ to Jyllands-Posten.

 

Zieler received an email back from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them."

 

How thoughtful of them

 

Nice to see they're capable of not offending religious sensitivities. Some of the time anyway.

 

 

Had they printed them though, could you imagine Christians all around the world protesting about them? Could you imagine them marching the streets of London wishing death on anyone who offends their religious beliefs? Or, in reality, is the most that would have happened likely to have been a few hundred letters of complaints and a request for an apology?

 

I'm pleased that they printed the cartoons. It helps to illustrate just how stupid religion is, how inordinately seriously some people take it, and also to shed yet more light on the extent of dangerous fundamentalism within the British and Global Muslim community.

[Zafar]

Please do not misinterpret what I have written. The sign of a wise man is for them to know that they have reached the limit of their expertise. This is not to say one does not try to expand one's learning rather that one admits to the lack of knowledge until such time as they become a recognised expert.

 

As you now confirm serious problems in understanding the content of these works I am sure no-one would think any less of you for recognising your limitations and confining yourself to areas of knowledge within your education.

 

What is your problem ?

I suggest you go back and actually read what I said in my post to Kay_Cee.

 

I'll assist you in that 'endevour'

 

Kay_cee,

 

Its very easy to quote verses from the Hadith, without giving a context.

 

'Abdullah bin Ubai, is hated figure amongst muslims because he was a hypocrite. I'm no scholor but based on what I've read this chap believed that the Prophet (and muslims) had dispossessed him of his power (apparantly he use to have leadership over a couple of Tribes Al-Aws and Al-Khazraj)

 

Now note the words 'I'm no scholor', do you know how much time and energy is required to be an Islamic Scholor ???? Its not like you can do a GCSE and become a Scholor.

 

You then kindly posted me the following:

 

As you've already confessed to being not terribly learned in your own religion dont you think it would be wise to stick with what you know? From what you've said so far I think that should keep you busy enough without going out of your depth on the 5 Books of Moses, Prophets and Psalms not to mention all the commentaries which far m more learned men than you or I spend their entire lifetime trying to understand.

 

So in your universe Not Being a Scholor = Not Terribly Learned?

 

I replied with

 

I said I wasn't a scholor, which isn't the same as not being 'terribly learned' re my religion

 

As far as sticking with what we know, I'm afraid that goes against the whole concept of learning and improving ourselves dont you think ?

We would have been quite content and happy with fire and living in caves

 

I find the whole history fascinating, I've read parts of the New Testament, but as far as the Old Testament, boy I have serious problems understanding what's being said.

 

Whose doing the misrepresenting ????

Kind of reminds me of those burglars who sue the victim !

[English Glory]

Not sure if this has been put on here yet but there was a rather discouraging poll by Populus as below:

from the Times:

 

These excesses are indeed unrepresentative of Islam or of the moderate majority of Muslims. A Populus poll of British Muslims confirms this. But it also reveals that the extremist minority is more than a statistical blip: 7 per cent of those polled believed suicide bombings could be justified in Britain and 16 per cent endorsed their use, in principle, in Israel. Almost as alarming, 30 per cent denied Israel’s right to exist, and nearly half believed that Britain’s Jewish community conspired with Freemasons to control the media and politics.

 

When people say a minority it is of course true but at 7pc agreeing with suicide bombings in principal in Britain, a land they live in, it's extremely worrying.

 

That's even before what almost a third think of our friends and allies Israel and half think of Jewish people living in Britain. The word intolerance doesn't do it justice.

[Zafar]

Have you thought of becoming a solicitor. I am beginning to think you may have mastered the tecnique of willful rudeness in an increasingly unbecoming and unatttractive manner.

 

For the avoidance of doubt I quoted you and felt you might appreciate some suggestions to avoid entering in to an area which you have admitted you do not understand.

 

Where a person admits to lack of knowledge it is often considered prudent to avoid entering further discussions on such matters to avoid demonstrating one's total ignorance. Cheers chuck

 

 

LOL yes My Lady, whatever you say My Lady.

 

you felt I might appreciate suggestions to avoid entering into an area ?

 

Where a person admits to lack of knowledge it is often considered prudent to avoid entering further discussions on such matters to avoid demonstrating one's total ignorance.

 

but why would you want to keep my out of the Old Testament ?

 

Cheers Darling

[Zafar]

The only other point I could usefully add here is that if he doesnt know or understand then he could usefully ask the people who do. I think these would be priests and Rabbi's respectively.

 

BUT I have the distinct impression from his carefully veiled insinuations, this gentleman does not like Jews at all and I rather suspect he is too self-opinionated to ask those who are qualified to discuss these matters with him in a full and properly informed manner to ensure he does not mislead others.

 

Despite some interesting points, I am increasingly of the view that this is a self-appointed mission to undertake a full scale damage limitation exercise for the Muslim World (dare I say community) after the most disasterous week in the media to date.

 

Should you wish to raise any other queries I am sure you will not hesitate to post. With all good wishes,

 

are you accusing me of anti-semitic ?????

 

Thats Mindboggling! Just because I disagree with Zionism you think I dont like Jews !

 

That would be as dumb as me saying that you're an anti-semite for not agreeing with Hamas !

 

Get a grip of yourself