andygardener Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Forgive me for disagreeing and thinking that the psychological picture of radicalisation is a much more complex one than either of you seem to think. Ok, so what do you think are the predominant factors in radicalisation? (I'm talking in country not areas where it's the norm like Swat or Somalia) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Ok, so what do you think are the predominant factors in radicalisation? (I'm talking in country not areas where it's the norm like Swat or Somalia) Off the top of my head - social alienation potential trauma uncertain, fluid, unreliable support network suggestibility unmanaged anger poor critical skills possible sociopathy possible over identification isolation from government moral and ideological vacuum socio-economic background immaturity external locus of control gender educational background ethnicity social identity discrimination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andygardener Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Off the top of my head - social alienation potential trauma uncertain, fluid, unreliable support network suggestibility unmanaged anger poor critical skills possible sociopathy possible over identification isolation from government moral and ideological vacuum socio-economic background immaturity external locus of control gender educational background ethnicity social identity discrimination Well then we've cracked it. Just round up anyone with a gender, an ethnicity and a social identity and terrorism is solved overnight. Excepts that's everyone so it's going to be tricky to find someone to do the rounding up. Sorry mike that shows you have no insight at all into this issue, it's just a guardian readers list of why people get involved in crime. What knowledge if any do you have of radicalisation? (I have quite a lot) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Well then we've cracked it. Just round up anyone with a gender, an ethnicity and a social identity and terrorism is solved overnight. Excepts that's everyone so it's going to be tricky to find someone to do the rounding up. Sorry mike that shows you have no insight at all into this issue, it's just a guardian readers list of why people get involved in crime. What knowledge if any do you have of radicalisation? (I have quite a lot) Apologies if I gave the impression that I have a great deal of knowledge of radicalisation specifically, as I don't. I am aware, however, that human experience and psychology is complex and doubt that every person who becomes radicalised fits a simplistic template. Are the things I listed not factors then? What are the real factors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andygardener Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Are the things I listed not factors then? What are the real factors? They're factors in so much as any one could be a factor in anything. They do not drill down into anything useful. Try reducing it to 3 key factors that in your view most contribute to radicalisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 They're factors in so much as any one could be a factor in anything. They do not drill down into anything useful. Try reducing it to 3 key factors that in your view most contribute to radicalisation. Right, here we go then. Gender and ethnicity obviously play a role but I'm not sure if you are discounting that type of thing in favour of psychological factors, so I'll give three apart from them. social alienation moral and ideological vacuum potential trauma (as in a catalytic event) PS. I found this study which covers some of the ground I alluded to. http://www.uk.sagepub.com/martin3study/articles/Silke.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinz Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Try reducing it to 3 key factors that in your view most contribute to radicalisation. You can't reduce it down to 3 factors otherwise you define the definition of radicalization by those 3 factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andygardener Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Right, here we go then. Gender and ethnicity obviously play a role but I'm not sure if you are discounting that type of thing in favour of psychological factors, so I'll give three apart from them. social alienation moral and ideological vacuum potential trauma (as in a catalytic event) PS. I found this study which covers some of the ground I alluded to. http://www.uk.sagepub.com/martin3study/articles/Silke.pdf Trauma is low on the list, even in core jihadi areas it's not a significant factor, where is it raised it's more an excuse than a causation. Social alienation is too broad a term to render anything meaningful from specific to jihadism. Moral and idealogical vacuum is spot on. People, obviously mainly muslim but also non muslims with a big old moral gap in their lives are the majority constituent of those recruited and groomed to the jihadist mindset. Criminals who know they are doing wrong and feel guilty about it. Wasters and layabouts looking for a purpose in life. With jihadism the idle are given a purpose in life and the criminal has his sins washed clean, only he doesn't have to stop being a criminal, he just has to carry on doing what he's doing and maybe get even more viscous with gods blessing and the promise of eternal life. To us it's just evil but to them suddenly their life has meaning, they are fighting the good fight against the infidels and the things they were doing that they felt were wrong are now acts of holiness. It's a morality carwash combined with a boys own romantic adventure - stand up for gods law on earth while your mates work 9-5 at the building site. Suddenly you are someone, bigger than the next guy, better than the next guy and with the promise of everlasting happiness. It's a damn seductive rhetoric. As to where we go with that, I've consistently argued that the grooming that goes on both in the real world and the web should be targetted in the same manner as the grooming of children for sexual exploitation. These people are identified and groomed and I've seen the transformations myself. If you want a first hand view of one of the milder sites then register at ummah.com and take a peek at the stuff on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Trauma is low on the list, even in core jihadi areas it's not a significant factor, where is it raised it's more an excuse than a causation. Social alienation is too broad a term to render anything meaningful from specific to jihadism. Moral and idealogical vacuum is spot on. People, obviously mainly muslim but also non muslims with a big old moral gap in their lives are the majority constituent of those recruited and groomed to the jihadist mindset. Criminals who know they are doing wrong and feel guilty about it. Wasters and layabouts looking for a purpose in life. With jihadism the idle are given a purpose in life and the criminal has his sins washed clean, only he doesn't have to stop being a criminal, he just has to carry on doing what he's doing and maybe get even more viscous with gods blessing and the promise of eternal life. To us it's just evil but to them suddenly their life has meaning, they are fighting the good fight against the infidels and the things they were doing that they felt were wrong are now acts of holiness. It's a morality carwash combined with a boys own romantic adventure - stand up for gods law on earth while your mates work 9-5 at the building site. Suddenly you are someone, bigger than the next guy, better than the next guy and with the promise of everlasting happiness. It's a damn seductive rhetoric. As to where we go with that, I've consistently argued that the grooming that goes on both in the real world and the web should be targetted in the same manner as the grooming of children for sexual exploitation. These people are identified and groomed and I've seen the transformations myself. If you want a first hand view of one of the milder sites then register at ummah.com and take a peek at the stuff on there. I agree with that. However, that just raises more questions for me about the personality type that the 'seductive rhetoric' (perfect phrase) will have an effect upon. I see that as an investigative journey into complex pathology with a tangled historical core that is personal to each victim of radicalisation but may contain some common factors that it would benefit society to understand. I don't think the understanding should stop once you trace back and decide that the person in question was a waster or layabout. How does the vacuum develop? What is its causal network? Why does it not lead everyone down the radicalisation road? What other critical factors are there? How can it be avoided? I imagine social alienation plays some part in this process. That's why I think it's complex and that is only based upon a moral and idealogical vacuum which represents only one factor in the radicalisation picture. Regarding trauma I seem to be hearing a lot at the moment about drone attacks playing a part in creating new generations of terrorists. (Particularly on Any Questions from New York last week). Surely they must influence ex-pat radicals as much as those sifting through the debris for cold remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinz Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Trauma is low on the list, even in core jihadi areas it's not a significant factor, where is it raised it's more an excuse than a causation. Social alienation is too broad a term to render anything meaningful from specific to jihadism. Moral and idealogical vacuum is spot on. People, obviously mainly muslim but also non muslims with a big old moral gap in their lives are the majority constituent of those recruited and groomed to the jihadist mindset. Criminals who know they are doing wrong and feel guilty about it. Wasters and layabouts looking for a purpose in life. With jihadism the idle are given a purpose in life and the criminal has his sins washed clean, only he doesn't have to stop being a criminal, he just has to carry on doing what he's doing and maybe get even more viscous with gods blessing and the promise of eternal life. To us it's just evil but to them suddenly their life has meaning, they are fighting the good fight against the infidels and the things they were doing that they felt were wrong are now acts of holiness. It's a morality carwash combined with a boys own romantic adventure - stand up for gods law on earth while your mates work 9-5 at the building site. Suddenly you are someone, bigger than the next guy, better than the next guy and with the promise of everlasting happiness. It's a damn seductive rhetoric. As to where we go with that, I've consistently argued that the grooming that goes on both in the real world and the web should be targetted in the same manner as the grooming of children for sexual exploitation. These people are identified and groomed and I've seen the transformations myself. If you want a first hand view of one of the milder sites then register at ummah.com and take a peek at the stuff on there. Interesting point but do you see a difference between a kindergarten in America where young children are fed rhetoric every morning and ordered to wear their hand over their heart while a flag flies behind them, and a young child in a "foreign" country ordered to sing rhetoric while holding his/her hand over their chest while their flag flies in the background. Radicalization takes many forms..it just depends on those who radicalize, but most of all their intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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