Waldo Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 @mjw47 From what you say, you sound more ignostic than agnostic.. The level of assumptions here really is astounding. Firstly, before debating the existence of god, perhaps it's an idea to clarify the following: 1. What is meant by god? 2. Is such a thing limited to states such as existing or not-existing? ---------- Post added 18-04-2013 at 23:42 ---------- Also, far more fascinating: 3. What exactly are you? 4. What exactly is belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Keep posting by all means, you obviously find yourself interesting, & that's a good thing if it keeps you from annoying other innocent people, I shall look upon it as my good deed for the day. as to leaving the thread I think I'll make my own mind up about that if it's OK with you. And although loath to admit it, you appear to have actually come up with something I find mildly interesting. YES I KNOW! who'd have thought it! If you are correct in the spelling & definition of Apatheist (spell check says not, maybe close enough?) The etymology of that word would appear to be connected to Apathetic? Feel free to continue, I shall feel free to ignore where appropriate. ---------- Post added 18-04-2013 at 23:26 ---------- And what none of you appear able to grasp, is that I have no interest in being 'educated' about a subject which is complete & utter tripe. As I keep trying to get across to the seemingly terminal obtuse, if there is no way of knowing, then the exercise is mind numbingly pointless. What possible advantage can there be in having a complete grasp of the intricacies of a fairy story? If someone on this thread was attempting to put me right on the nuances of the Jedi belief system as opposed to the Klingon religion & I expressed a certain disinterest in their efforts would you be on here asking me to 'open my mind'? Well, hate to break it to you my friend, but every single religion & non religious belief on the face of this planet was dreamed up in the mind of man. Just like those science fiction story's. None of which proves whether or not a Creator exists or doesn't exist. Which is why I am an agnostic. I do not KNOW, & the truth is of course, that neither does anyone else no matter what they may claim. Sorry to join the choir, but Roots, Rich and the rest are quite correct. You are paddling in deep philosophical waters here and are in danger of drowning if you don't at least acknowledge that they are an awful lot deeper than you first imagined and that others may have more comprehensive knowledge and experience of the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 @mjw47 From what you say, you sound more ignostic than agnostic.. The level of assumptions here really is astounding. Firstly, before debating the existence of god, perhaps it's an idea to clarify the following: 1. What is meant by god? 2. Is such a thing limited to states such as existing or not-existing? ---------- Post added 18-04-2013 at 23:42 ---------- Also, far more fascinating: 3. What exactly are you? 4. What exactly is belief? Really? pathetic attempt at a wind up. I can not believe the level of complete numptyness showing up on this thread. OK, I'll treat it as if you are serious, I have the patience of a Saint, which is funny really as I don't actually believe in them. 'Is such a thing limited to states such as existing or not existing' well grasshopper, it depends upon your level of spiritual awareness. 'What exactly are you' I am the wind beneath your wings. 'what exactly is belief' It is the feeling that, despite the fact that my beloved Blades have managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in an unbelievably consistent manner, THIS TIME, oh yes this time- sorry can not carry on with this charade, talk amongst yourselves. Lads it's been very amusing but you guys are beginning to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Just to clarify for the hard of understanding amongst you. In the religious debate there are two factions which can be classed as 'believers'. Theists & Atheists. Theists believe there is a God & Atheists believe there is no God. Both of these are beliefs as opposed to actual facts because neither side can prove their contention. Agnostics on the other hand are not believers, we state unequivocally that we do not know. Therefore, unlike the other alternatives, we are not trying to recruit new members. What would our slogan be? Join us, we have no idea what the hell is going on! As stated before in my post about the Jedi & Klingons you are trying to talk seriously about a nonsense subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Really? pathetic attempt at a wind up. I can not believe the level of complete numptyness showing up on this thread. OK, I'll treat it as if you are serious, I have the patience of a Saint, which is funny really as I don't actually believe in them. 'Is such a thing limited to states such as existing or not existing' well grasshopper, it depends upon your level of spiritual awareness. 'What exactly are you' I am the wind beneath your wings. 'what exactly is belief' It is the feeling that, despite the fact that my beloved Blades have managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in an unbelievably consistent manner, THIS TIME, oh yes this time- sorry can not carry on with this charade, talk amongst yourselves. Lads it's been very amusing but you guys are beginning to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Just to clarify for the hard of understanding amongst you. In the religious debate there are two factions which can be classed as 'believers'. Theists & Atheists. Theists believe there is a God & Atheists believe there is no God. Both of these are beliefs as opposed to actual facts because neither side can prove their contention. Agnostics on the other hand are not believers, we state unequivocally that we do not know. Therefore, unlike the other alternatives, we are not trying to recruit new members. What would our slogan be? Join us, we have no idea what the hell is going on! As stated before in my post about the Jedi & Klingons you are trying to talk seriously about a nonsense subject. With a completely straight face and in complete seriousness, have you never come across philosophical discussions of this type before? You only have to check out the internet of even other religious discussions on this forum involving the selfsame posters and others to realise that this is no joke and that there is valuable education to be had. Try this one http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=972854&highlight=god or this one http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1081138&highlight=god You have struck me as a thoughtful and open-minded poster on other threads so your attitude on this one is baffling me a little. Above all else, at least have a look here http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Sorry to join the choir, but Roots, Rich and the rest are quite correct. You are paddling in deep philosophical waters here and are in danger of drowning if you don't at least acknowledge that they are an awful lot deeper than you first imagined and that others may have more comprehensive knowledge and experience of the area. No mikem8634. I am not paddling, as you so eloquently put it, in deep philosophical waters. There are no deep waters, simply mans fear of death & his eternal attempt to make sense of life. As I mentioned earlier, I was raised a Catholic. The Catholic Church is the original Christian church. The current Pope is the 260 something direct successor to St Peter, the first Pope & the man who new the man called Jesus Christ. I was a practicing Catholic until I was 19 at which time I decided, of my own free will, to walk away. If the teachings of the first Christian & one true Church are to be believed that decision put my immortal soul in peril. Now think about that my friend. Do you honestly believe that the nonsense spouted on an internet forum is going to influence my beliefs? The best the oldest Christian Church in the world can produce have had a run at me, I've had Nuns, Christian Brothers, Jesuits & your bog standard Priests try to brainwash me when I was a youngster. None of it convinced me, born an agnostic & I will die one. Deep philosophical waters get a grip man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 No mikem8634. I am not paddling, as you so eloquently put it, in deep philosophical waters. There are no deep waters, simply mans fear of death & his eternal attempt to make sense of life. As I mentioned earlier, I was raised a Catholic. The Catholic Church is the original Christian church. The current Pope is the 260 something direct successor to St Peter, the first Pope & the man who new the man called Jesus Christ. I was a practicing Catholic until I was 19 at which time I decided, of my own free will, to walk away. If the teachings of the first Christian & one true Church are to be believed that decision put my immortal soul in peril. Now think about that my friend. Do you honestly believe that the nonsense spouted on an internet forum is going to influence my beliefs? The best the oldest Christian Church in the world can produce have had a run at me, I've had Nuns, Christian Brothers, Jesuits & your bog standard Priests try to brainwash me when I was a youngster. None of it convinced me, born an agnostic & I will die one. Deep philosophical waters get a grip man. It is of no consequence or real relevance but for the sake of info if you changed the age of enlightenment to fourteen then you could be describing my own upbringing. I am not in any way religious and am not trying to influence your beliefs. I was under the impression that the discussion was about widening understanding and knowledge but you seem to be resisting that with a strange passion. Like it or not, the philosophy of religion and belief is a both a huge and deep subject in academic terms alone, and is debated in the most esteemed seats of learning the world has to offer. If you are not interested in the subject then fair enough, the choice is yours, but you are on sticky ground claiming it does not exist or that your incredibly limited understanding of the terms of reference somehow trumps the knowledge others have gained through great discipline and considerable erudition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampent Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 The baby jesus was born from a mother that never had sex and stuff. I leave the thread and listen to westlife on Radio Tobbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 No mikem8634. I am not paddling, as you so eloquently put it, in deep philosophical waters. There are no deep waters, simply mans fear of death & his eternal attempt to make sense of life. As I mentioned earlier, I was raised a Catholic. The Catholic Church is the original Christian church. The current Pope is the 260 something direct successor to St Peter, the first Pope & the man who new the man called Jesus Christ. I was a practicing Catholic until I was 19 at which time I decided, of my own free will, to walk away. If the teachings of the first Christian & one true Church are to be believed that decision put my immortal soul in peril. Now think about that my friend. Do you honestly believe that the nonsense spouted on an internet forum is going to influence my beliefs? The best the oldest Christian Church in the world can produce have had a run at me, I've had Nuns, Christian Brothers, Jesuits & your bog standard Priests try to brainwash me when I was a youngster. None of it convinced me, born an agnostic & I will die one. Deep philosophical waters get a grip man. I have neither the time nor inclination to address all of your points but this is truly amazing: You were born agnostic! So you were born with an awareness that there may or may not be a God with enough cognitive ability to decide that there isn't enough evidence to decide. That is far more amazing than God actually existing! Btw the Catholic Church wasn't the first Christian denomination. I could go on but don't have the time, I think you're drowning. You've been beating the same drum since you joined this thread but have avoided answering directly criticisms raised. Simply saying 'No it isn't' is not an argument, it's just contradiction. ---------- Post added 19-04-2013 at 05:59 ---------- In the same way as I can identify with being a non-murderer, or a non-meat eater, or a non-gerbil lover. It's not the same thing. Atheism is the default position, the examples you cite require making a choice. ---------- Post added 19-04-2013 at 06:03 ---------- @mjw47 From what you say, you sound more ignostic than agnostic.. The level of assumptions here really is astounding. Firstly, before debating the existence of god, perhaps it's an idea to clarify the following: 1. What is meant by god? 2. Is such a thing limited to states such as existing or not-existing? ---------- Post added 18-04-2013 at 23:42 ---------- Also, far more fascinating: 3. What exactly are you? 4. What exactly is belief? Ignostocism is a flawed philosophical position. Most Theists say although God can't be defined he does have attributes. We can examine evidence claimed for these attributes and make a reasonable assessment of whether that God exists based on that evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Couple of quotes from William Lane Craig sums it for me: So why, you might wonder, would atheists be anxious to so trivialize their position? …[A] deceptive game is being played by many atheists. If atheism is taken to be a view, namely the view that there is no God, then atheists must shoulder their share of the burden of proof to support this view. But many atheists admit freely that they cannot sustain such a burden of proof. So they try to shirk their epistemic responsibility by re-defining atheism so that it is no longer a view but just a psychological condition which as such makes no assertions. They are really closet agnostics who want to claim the mantle of atheism without shouldering its responsibilities. This is disingenuous and still leaves us asking, "So is there a God or not?" I hear all the time that atheism wins by default – in other words, if there aren’t any good arguments for God, then atheism automatically wins. So many of these fellows don’t offer any arguments for atheism; instead, they just try to shoot down the arguments for theism and say they win by default. In reality, however, the failure of arguments for God wouldn’t do anything to establish that God does not exist. The claim that there is no God is a positive claim to knowledge and therefore requires justification. The failure of arguments for God would leave us, at best, with agnosticism, not atheism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Couple of quotes from William Lane Craig sums it for me: ah Mr Fisk. Any chance of answering the points I put to you on the other God thread now you're back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.