Miliband not ready to be Prime Minister.

[MrSmith]

The reality is that natural population growth will cause our population to grow, even without immigration. It is going to happen and that needs to be addressed.

No it doesn’t and if we hadn’t had immigration our population would have been in decline for the past couple of decades.

 

The danger of reducing spending too quickly is that it would cause the deficit to increase by sucking demand out of economy. We have had a taste of this already. Long-term I agree we need to get borrowing in check. Yes we need to increase the retirement age too.

The deficit can't increase if we cut spending to match income that means we need more people in work, cheaper houses and living costs, they best way to achieve that is to allow the population to fall by cutting immigration so that net immigration is either zero or negative.

 

I'm not suggesting culling the old. I'm asking you whether we should. I'm wondering how else you would make it happen.

 

It would fall naturally if we cut net immigration to zero or negative, it would fall faster still if cut child related benefits.

[I1L2T3]

No it doesn’t and if we hadn’t had immigration our population would have been in decline for the past couple of decades.

 

The deficit can't increase if we cut spending to match income that means we need more people in work, cheaper houses and living costs, they best way to achieve that is to allow the population to fall by cutting immigration so that net immigration is either zero or negative.

 

It would fall naturally if we cut net immigration to zero or negative, it would fall faster still if cut child related benefits.

 

But we have had immigration. It is real. Our population will continue to increase even if we cut migration to zero.

 

If we immediately cut spending to match income then the result will be a huge amount of demand taken out of the economy very quickly. It would cause borrowing to increase because of benefit spend and reduced tax receipts. I share your hope for a government budget balancing over time but from where we are now it's at best a medium term project. I think it will take 10 years from now to balance it, that is certainly more than Osborne estimated and more than Labour estimated too.

 

If you discourage British people from having kids and forbid immigration you will create a demographic time bomb.

[MrSmith]

But we have had immigration. It is real. Our population will continue to increase even if we cut migration to zero.

 

No it won't it will slowly decline if we cut net immigration to zero and cut child related benefits.

 

If we immediately cut spending to match income then the result will be a huge amount of demand taken out of the economy very quickly. It would cause borrowing to increase because of benefit spend and reduced tax receipts.

I haven't said it should be done over night, but we need to start now. Increasing the population and debts in the short term makes the problem harder to solve in the long term. First thing to do is get people off benefits and we can't do that whilst net immigration exceeds job creation.

 

 

 

I share your hope for a government budget balancing over time but from where we are now it's at best a medium term project. I think it will take 10 years from now to balance it, that is certainly more than Osborne estimated and more than Labour estimated too.

 

I think it will take a several hundred years to get the UK population and world population back to a sustainable level.

 

If you discourage British people from having kids and forbid immigration you will create a demographic time bomb.

 

Only if you want to laze around in retirement for thirty years, increasing pension age solves that little dilemma.

[Hillpig]

But that doesn't mean that the debt is going down, as you claimed.

 

It just means that it is increasing at a slower rate.

 

If you are going to join in debates like this, it would be best if you understood what you were talking about.

 

Dear boy.

 

I have provided the evidence you are your comrades asked for, it is derived from your in house daily fact sheet the Grauniad. I had assumed that as you lot usually believe evey word it prints you would accept the information.

 

I should not be surprised when as is usual when you are shown to be wrong you engage in such nonsensical verbiage.

[WeX]

What is a large proportion and what is the mechanism for claiming back the tax?

 

Not sure, its possible they just claim back due to the No taxed allowance if they do not work a full year.

 

It still works out well for them as they can work in the UK. Earn just below the tax threshold, head back to their country of origin and claim back all the tax they paid, but continue to work in their own country. Effectively using both the UK's and their own countries allowance in one year. The loser in this is the UK as for the services they have used, they paid nothing.

 

Its probably only a small number of people who do this, but it is a bit of a loophole.

[I1L2T3]

Not sure, its possible they just claim back due to the No taxed allowance if they do not work a full year.

 

It still works out well for them as they can work in the UK. Earn just below the tax threshold, head back to their country of origin and claim back all the tax they paid, but continue to work in their own country. Effectively using both the UK's and their own countries allowance in one year. The loser in this is the UK as for the services they have used, they paid nothing.

 

Its probably only a small number of people who do this, but it is a bit of a loophole.

 

So they do PAYE and them claim tax back for overpayment based on a part of a year they didn't work. That's not a loophole. That's how it works. You can do it too. And then you could go and work in another EU country too.

[MrSmith]

So they do PAYE and them claim tax back for overpayment based on a part of a year they didn't work. That's not a loophole. That's how it works. You can do it too. And then you could go and work in another EU country too.

 

But it still counters your argument that they pay tax in our economy when clearly many don’t.

[I1L2T3]

But it still counters your argument that they pay tax in our economy when clearly many don’t.

 

No it doesn't. They still pay the correct tax for the time they work. They get a rebate for the time they don't work because they will have overpaid during the time they did.

 

I did exactly this when I went to do my postgrad degree. I worked until the September and paid tax through the PAYE system. Because I was a student from September-April and didn't work come April I'd paid too much tax. I claimed a rebate. It's not a loophole. Just the way the system works.

 

---------- Post added 22-04-2013 at 19:09 ----------

 

I have provided the evidence you are your comrades asked for, it is derived from your in house daily fact sheet the Grauniad. I had assumed that as you lot usually believe evey word it prints you would accept the information.

 

I should not be surprised when as is usual when you are shown to be wrong you engage in such nonsensical verbiage.

 

You provided evidence that the debt was increasing at a slower rate. Nothing else. The debt is still increasing.

 

As I said you need to understand the difference between deficit and debt.

[MrSmith]

No it doesn't. They still pay the correct tax for the time they work. They get a rebate for the time they don't work because they will have overpaid during the time they did.

 

I did exactly this when I went to do my postgrad degree. I worked until the September and paid tax through the PAYE system. Because I was a student from September-April and didn't work come April I'd paid too much tax. I claimed a rebate. It's not a loophole. Just the way the system works.

 

No one as suggested its a loophole, Wex just countered your argument that they all pay tax, which they don't and many take out much more than they ever put in.

 

In many cases the correct tax is no tax, so therefore they don't all contribute to the government coffers but use the services the government provides, making them a net drain on the UK economy and not a net contributor.

[I1L2T3]

No one as suggested its a loophole, Wex just countered your argument that they all pay tax, which they don't and many take out much more than they ever put in.

 

In many cases the correct tax is no tax, so therefore they don't all contribute to the government coffers but use the services the government provides, making them a net drain on the UK economy and not a net contributor.

 

Nope. WeX said it was a loophole.

 

The correct tax is no tax if they earn below the personal allowance. If they earn above that and they are on PAYE then they pay tax. Like every other person on PAYE they can claim a rebate if they pay too much tax. Because they are immigrants we can't take away their right to claim a rebate like anybody else can.

 

What I was countering is more silly anti-immigrant claptrap.

 

If you don't believe me about the PAYE rules look at the HMRC website.