Do schools mess people up?

[Hammerstein]

Being given a 'good' rating by Ofsted is hardly a measure of genuine educational innovation and excellence. Quite the reverse, in fact...

I would say it is a very good measure of educational aptitute when OFSTED have had a history of deliberate attempts to shut the place down. If they're acknowledging that they're doing alright for themselves then I would say it's a good sign in the circumstances.

 

But how do you know whether you're suited to a subject until you've studied it for some time?

 

By being interested in it? Natural curiosity is the entire point behind it. If you end up taking an interest in something else later on down the line then so be it, but at least you're not turned away from it by having it forced down your throat.

 

You were fortunate to have had the chance to go to university and the luxury of choosing to reject what it offered you.

 

I didn't reject it. I passed my degree and took a PGCE.

 

I know what you mean, but there are ways and means to make such students feel valued. I taught English and would sometimes get such expressions of grief to 'mark', when grading them was clearly inappropriate. In those cases I simply gave feedback orally to the student and explained that I wasn't grading it and why.

I wish I had been able to do that. As a trainee the pressure is on do things how the other teacher wants it to be done. Do you not think it is a catastrophic oversight so even consider the technicalities when they are grieving though?

 

I do think there are ways to make students feel valued but I think the problem is that in order to do so you have to somewhat go against the logic of the institution

[Rampent]

^^ agree absolutely

 

---------- Post added 22-04-2013 at 23:40 ----------

 

 

I thought it might elicit this kind of ignorant smut! (Comes from teaching too many 14 year olds). Yawn.

 

Orally as opposed to written.

 

Go easty!! I have a IQ of 58.

[Hammerstein]

I saw a documentary about Summerhill, and some of the pupils came out knowing nothing. Fortunately for them they were all pretty well off so Daddy gave them a job in his business etc. Problem solved, but not so easy for ordinary mortals.

Many people come out of normal school knowing nothing. It may well have been the cushy lifestyle and the knowledge that it didn't really matter either way that may have impact on things. What is the name of the documentary? I'd love to see it.

 

You have to be a pretty mature and motivated kind of kid to cope with the responsibility of what amounts to educating yourself. However that's not to say education shouldn't be flexible and enjoyable in the hands of a good teacher.

 

If you are simply pursuing what you are interested in then I don't really see how 'motivation' is an issue. In the right environment there is simply no dichotomy between 'learning' and leisure'. Babies learn how to walk and talk completely naturally of their own accord, without any 'motivation' to do so. Almost all babies learn this, presumably without an conscious effort.

 

As for your point about the grieving child; well of course the message is the most important thing which requires a response. Writing is primarily about communication.

 

That should go without saying, but for an insecure teacher who is under a lot of pressure to tick the right boxes it may be very hard to see things like that.

 

The idea in education these days is supposed to be about tailoring the learning to the needs of the individual child - a highly commendable aim, but very difficult to put into practice in a class of 30 different ability pupils.

Which is precisely, one might think, where the idea of letting the children learn about things they are interested in would come in.

[aliceBB]

It's rational to offer students some kind of choice in what they learn, at some point. The question is when. I would argue 11 is probably too soon.

 

The motivation to learn comes ideally from within and is nurtured by the family in the first instance. The teacher and the school support that. Sadly not all parents/families value learning and some positively ridicule it. In that context, it's up to teachers to enthuse a child and it can be hard work. That doesn't mean you shouldn't persevere, though.

[Anna B]

I would say it is a very good measure of educational aptitute when OFSTED have had a history of deliberate attempts to shut the place down. If they're acknowledging that they're doing alright for themselves then I would say it's a good sign in the circumstances.

 

 

 

By being interested in it? Natural curiosity is the entire point behind it. If you end up taking an interest in something else later on down the line then so be it, but at least you're not turned away from it by having it forced down your throat.

 

 

 

I didn't reject it. I passed my degree and took a PGCE.

 

 

I wish I had been able to do that. As a trainee the pressure is on do things how the other teacher wants it to be done. Do you not think it is a catastrophic oversight so even consider the technicalities when they are grieving though?

 

I do think there are ways to make students feel valued but I think the problem is that in order to do so you have to somewhat go against the logic of the institution

 

What is best for your pupils should always be your primary consideration. Don't let them knock that instinct out of you. But remember you'll never stop learning yourself, no matter how long you're in the business.

 

A good teacher often has to be a bit of a maverick and go against the prevailing trend, (but that probably comes later when you have your own class and some experience.)

 

What do buses and new teaching methods have in common? - There'll always be another one along in a minute...

[Rampent]

It's rational to offer students some kind of choice in what they learn, at some point. The question is when. I would argue 11 is probably too soon.

 

The motivation to learn comes ideally from within and is nurtured by the family in the first instance. The teacher and the school support that. Sadly not all parents/families value learning and some positively ridicule it. In that context, it's up to teachers to enthuse a child and it can be hard work. That doesn't mean you shouldn't persevere, though.

 

In what way?

[Hammerstein]

 

What is best for your pupils should always be your primary consideration. Don't let them knock that instinct out of you. But remember you'll never stop learning yourself, no matter how long you're in the business.

 

A good teacher often has to be a bit of a maverick and go against the prevailing trend, (but that probably comes later when you have your own class and some experience.)

 

What do buses and new teaching methods have in common? - There'll always be another one along in a minute...

 

To be honest I really don't think I'm likely to go back to formal teaching in a state school unless things have changed dramatically. I aim to either teach at one of these democratic schools (or something similar - somewhat unlikely considering there is about 10 in the UK) or work with children in a more informal context like youth work.

 

I'm passionate about helping children but I knew that sticking at that would just grind me down eventually. I could put up with it whilst fundamentally disagreeing with it if it was just a 9-5 but i don't think i'd be able to commit the hours required without it having a serious impact on my well-being in the long term. I did pass my PGCE and am a qualified teacher though, so it's always a possibility.

[aliceBB]

Anna B - only the first two lines of what you've quoted (in your last post) and attributed to me was actually my post. The rest is Hammerstein's views.

 

---------- Post added 23-04-2013 at 07:06 ----------

 

In what way?

 

In lots of ways. Most significantly and damagingly, by

 

-first, not feeding them properly so they go to school either unfed or full of sugar (chocolatey cereals, fizzy drinks, white bread, etc), which impair their concentration and ability to learn. By parents turning up at the school at lunchtime with high fat, high sugar take-away meals or Mars Bars, etc. because they disagree with the school's healthy eating policy and claim their child won't eat anything other than chips, deep-fried sausages, KFC etc.

 

-by allowing them to sit inert watching a screen for hours each day and all weekend, instead of encouraging them to be physically active

 

-by criticising/undermining their teacher(s) in front of them : 'Oh, he's a rubbish teacher, lots of people have told me that', 'Nobody's saying that to any kid of mine', 'I wish we could have got you into to X other school', not letting them be disciplined at school ('No child of mine is staying behind for a detention'), storming into school and picking fights with the Head, teachers, etc. There are ways of challenging a teacher's treatment of your child or a school's policy, and obviously you have to be an advocate for your child, but you once you let the kid think you have no respect for the place, they won't have any either. Even if you think the teacher has been totallly useless/inappropriate, you have to go through the correct channels to get it sorted, not mouth off in front of your child.

 

-not attending parent's evenings because they didn't want to miss Eastenders/Homeland/the pub quiz/work - even when the other not-at-work parent could have come (believe me, it happens)

 

-by taking the child out of school in term time to go on holiday or to go shopping. It's not so much the amount of teaching they miss (although that does make a difference especially at GCSE), but the message it sends : your education is less important than us getting a discount to go to Tenerife and drink a lot.

 

-by doing their homework/coursework for them rather than helping them to do it for themselves

 

-by having no books in the home (whether paper or electronic) and never letting the child see them read for information or pleasure. By commenting negatively when the child is reading or trying to do homework.

 

-by telling them that university is a waste of time because it doesn't lead to a job, or that they (the parents) hated school/Teacher X/subject Y, etc.

 

All these things drive a wedge between a child and a positive perception of his or her education and can lead to demotivation, poor concentration/poor behaviour/poor academic progress. They are by no means confined to parents in particular socio-economic groups either. My friend is an Assistant Head of a private school and has parents ring up on a regular basis demanding their child be moved into a higher set (against the school's recommendation) because they don't like the teacher...she's even had 'We're paying your wages, young lady, I think you'll find you have to do as we ask'.

[Anna B]

Anna B - only the first two lines of what you've quoted (in your last post) and attributed to me was actually my post. The rest is Hammerstein's views.

 

---------- Post added 23-04-2013 at 07:06 ----------

 

 

In lots of ways. Most significantly and damagingly, by

 

-first, not feeding them properly so they go to school either unfed or full of sugar (chocolatey cereals, fizzy drinks, white bread, etc), which impair their concentration and ability to learn. By parents turning up at the school at lunchtime with high fat, high sugar take-away meals or Mars Bars, etc. because they disagree with the school's healthy eating policy and claim their child won't eat anything other than chips, deep-fried sausages, KFC etc.

 

-by allowing them to sit inert watching a screen for hours each day and all weekend, instead of encouraging them to be physically active

 

-by criticising/undermining their teacher(s) in front of them : 'Oh, he's a rubbish teacher, lots of people have told me that', 'Nobody's saying that to any kid of mine', 'I wish we could have got you into to X other school', not letting them be disciplined at school ('No child of mine is staying behind for a detention'), storming into school and picking fights with the Head, teachers, etc. There are ways of challenging a teacher's treatment of your child or a school's policy, and obviously you have to be an advocate for your child, but you once you let the kid think you have no respect for the place, they won't have any either. Even if you think the teacher has been totallly useless/inappropriate, you have to go through the correct channels to get it sorted, not mouth off in front of your child.

 

-not attending parent's evenings because they didn't want to miss Eastenders/Homeland/the pub quiz/work - even when the other not-at-work parent could have come (believe me, it happens)

 

-by taking the child out of school in term time to go on holiday or to go shopping. It's not so much the amount of teaching they miss (although that does make a difference especially at GCSE), but the message it sends : your education is less important than us getting a discount to go to Tenerife and drink a lot.

 

-by doing their homework/coursework for them rather than helping them to do it for themselves

 

-by having no books in the home (whether paper or electronic) and never letting the child see them read for information or pleasure. By commenting negatively when the child is reading or trying to do homework.

 

-by telling them that university is a waste of time because it doesn't lead to a job, or that they (the parents) hated school/Teacher X/subject Y, etc.

 

All these things drive a wedge between a child and a positive perception of his or her education and can lead to demotivation, poor concentration/poor behaviour/poor academic progress. They are by no means confined to parents in particular socio-economic groups either. My friend is an Assistant Head of a private school and has parents ring up on a regular basis demanding their child be moved into a higher set (against the school's recommendation) because they don't like the teacher...she's even had 'We're paying your wages, young lady, I think you'll find you have to do as we ask'.

 

First, apologies Alice, for attributing the whole post to you.

 

Secondly, I couldn't agree more with above post.

 

Parents have to bear some of the blame for the situation in school. The home/school agreement was supposed to help address some of this but is not taken seriously by some parents. They see it as an 'us and them' situation, which is the opposite of what's needed.