Explaining money and work to children

[Sid Umpley]

Salk had many jobs. all paid. he also married the daughter of a wealthy dentist (also paid) to make a big deal of him giving away something is one thing but to try to idolise him while defending a no income society is foolish.

[Hammerstein]

I can sympathise with the idea but if it's ever going to happen then the process of bringing about, in my opinion, will be extremely slow and gradual from where we are now rather than anything sudden.

 

If any 'progress' is going to be sustainable then it needs to happen gradually and also as and when people are ready for it. I don't think it has been mentioned in here but I have spoken to many who harp on about 'revolution' etc but I just think it's nonsense to think like that. It's about evolution, not revolution.

[MrSmith]

At what age do you think we should explain the concepts of "money" and "work" to our children?

 

At what point should we explain to our children that money is actually debt and that the essence of debt is slavery?

 

At what point should we explain to our children that life, after state and private propaganda institutions have "educated" them, is essentially about wage slavery, followed by a brief period of ill health on subsistence pensions?

 

At what point do we explain to them that the work they will be forced to do will not benefit society or the natural environment, neither will it contribute to mental wellbeing, but only serves to enrich a cabal of elite "rulers" - their masters?

 

At what point do we explain to them that they have been born into slavery?

 

Maybe you should have considered these things before having children and condemning them to slavery. It's very selfish of you, you could always teach them how to survive without money, and then they won’t have to be someone’s slave. Ben Fogle met some people that left the modern world behind and live without money.

[tinfoilhat]

Chem trails thread and now this ? Awesome !!!!!

 

There is no way society you talk about will work with the numbers we have in this country and indeed the planet. Tell me how you are gong to keep living standards anywhere near where they are now.

 

Another question would be, and this isn't meant horribly, why are you here ? Your pc might run something cuddly like Linux (does it ?) but the innerds weren't built by hippies, quite the opposite ?why aren't you at a commune or something ?

[Dew Chains]

oldskater's got my point.

 

How is somebody, or even a group of people, going to find resources to develop the skills and techniques required. If they are too busy catering to their own survival needs they won't have the time or resources. If society decides it's worth supporting such people, it's going to need some way of transferring the resources to such people. Bartering with someone for food with the promise that, after several generations worth of research, you hope to have produced a way doing something like preventing polio isn't going to work - the pay back it too remote.

 

Salk not patenting the polio vaccine was commendable but what did he live on whilst doing so?

 

We already have the skills and techniques. Admittedly, they need continuous tweaking, but with the restless human mind that will happen quite naturally. Most food is produced using machines, very little human effort is required. Most machines are built by machines, again very little human effort required. Focussing attention on how to create enough sustainable energy is where human attention needs to be directed.

 

It seems most on here feel that anyone who wants to end the monetary/slave system automatically wants to live in a tree, collect nuts and hunt boar. This is not the case. We have the potential to utilise technological advancements and to create systems that work for human beings, not as is the case at present, against the majority, for the minority. Bartering - apart from voluntary bartering, would not be needed.

 

Salk had many jobs. all paid. he also married the daughter of a wealthy dentist (also paid) to make a big deal of him giving away something is one thing but to try to idolise him while defending a no income society is foolish.

 

Of course he did - he lived in a monetary system. I did not say that he lived in a cave and worked out how to vaccinate against polio by rubbbing sticks together. The point is that many humans have dedicated time and effort to projects because they wanted to, because the human drive to do such things is a fundamental part of our nature. We do not need paper notes wafted under our noses to motivate us to create medical remedies, or anything else for that matter.

 

I can sympathise with the idea but if it's ever going to happen then the process of bringing about, in my opinion, will be extremely slow and gradual from where we are now rather than anything sudden.

 

If any 'progress' is going to be sustainable then it needs to happen gradually and also as and when people are ready for it. I don't think it has been mentioned in here but I have spoken to many who harp on about 'revolution' etc but I just think it's nonsense to think like that. It's about evolution, not revolution.

 

I agree. I've spent many years studying past revolutions. They don't work. Evolution? A slow process that often evolves in the wrong direction (to suit elites) Perhaps punctuated equilibrium? But that will only be brought about through collective will - and without the interference of the media/govt/elites who only want perpetuate an unequal system. A sort of speedy evolution where people choose to collectively ignore govt/elites etc.

 

Chem trails thread and now this ? Awesome !!!!!

 

There is no way society you talk about will work with the numbers we have in this country and indeed the planet. Tell me how you are gong to keep living standards anywhere near where they are now.

 

Another question would be, and this isn't meant horribly, why are you here ? Your pc might run something cuddly like Linux (does it ?) but the innerds weren't built by hippies, quite the opposite ?why aren't you at a commune or something ?

 

Actually, quite alot of so-called "hippies" did end up in IT. Check out the history of computing post 60s and the growth of Silicon Valley. Many thought of it as a brave new world and many of the first systems, such as intranets, were developed to promote equality and harmony.

 

I don't live in a commune because I believe we are living in a unique period where discussion between thinking people on how to shape the future of the human species is more vital than ever. I don't want to lock myself away in a hermitage or a commune. There are many potentialities for human society - even with 7bill people. We won't get any answers from the media/governments etc because all they want to do is maintain the status quo.

 

If at least we talk we can try and create viable solutions that dismantle the slavery/monetary system - but singing from the hymn books provided for you by the elites won't get us anywhere.

[tinfoilhat]

Fair play for replying to it all.

 

I think you have a vastly inflated idea of the average, particularly western, person. Most people work because they have to. If the machines are looking after the food etc and we've got energy (be it solar, nuclear or dilithium crystals) sorted and we don't have to work for food or shelter, I'm not spending my days looking for the next great technological advancement - Im going fishing or I'll try painting maybe just cruise about on my hover board.

 

Most people don't work crazy hours. Some don't work at all, and they will in the main fill their time with things other than any of the things you mention. Necessity is the mother of all invention. In this country, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, are reasonably comfortable. We're fed, housed, given security and healthcare by the state. Yes, things need sorting round the edges but the main reason we aren't outside parliment with pitchforks and torches is because the system works and has done, no matter who is in charge, for decades.

[altus]

We already have the skills and techniques. Admittedly, they need continuous tweaking, but with the restless human mind that will happen quite naturally. Most food is produced using machines, very little human effort is required. Most machines are built by machines, again very little human effort required. Focussing attention on how to create enough sustainable energy is where human attention needs to be directed.

If you're going to opt out of money, you'll have to accept that the people who currently produce the food/machinery/medical/technological advances are part of the money system and you'll be opting out them as well. You could interface with the money system in some way, in which case you'll either have to provide them with goods/services for what you require (in which case it's payment in kind and haven't really left the system) or rely on them to donate them to you for free (in which case you are dependent of the system you want to get away from).

 

It seems most on here feel that anyone who wants to end the monetary/slave system automatically wants to live in a tree, collect nuts and hunt boar. This is not the case. We have the potential to utilise technological advancements and to create systems that work for human beings, not as is the case at present, against the majority, for the minority. Bartering - apart from voluntary bartering, would not be needed.

How are you going to provide the 'big things' - particularly on the scale for the current population? Transport links (e.g. road/rail)? How are you going to get enough food into London?

 

Of course he did - he lived in a monetary system. I did not say that he lived in a cave and worked out how to vaccinate against polio by rubbbing sticks together. The point is that many humans have dedicated time and effort to projects because they wanted to, because the human drive to do such things is a fundamental part of our nature. We do not need paper notes wafted under our noses to motivate us to create medical remedies, or anything else for that matter.

No but you need a system of supporting people doing long term research that will have no immediate benefit - or even any at all. How would you organise such a thing?

 

Actually, quite alot of so-called "hippies" did end up in IT. Check out the history of computing post 60s and the growth of Silicon Valley. Many thought of it as a brave new world and many of the first systems, such as intranets, were developed to promote equality and harmony.

 

No they weren't. They were developed so the US military would have a communications network that could survive nuclear attack.

[Dew Chains]

Fair play for replying to it all.

 

I think you have a vastly inflated idea of the average, particularly western, person. Most people work because they have to. If the machines are looking after the food etc and we've got energy (be it solar, nuclear or dilithium crystals) sorted and we don't have to work for food or shelter, I'm not spending my days looking for the next great technological advancement - Im going fishing or I'll try painting maybe just cruise about on my hover board.

 

Most people don't work crazy hours. Some don't work at all, and they will in the main fill their time with things other than any of the things you mention. Necessity is the mother of all invention. In this country, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, are reasonably comfortable. We're fed, housed, given security and healthcare by the state. Yes, things need sorting round the edges but the main reason we aren't outside parliment with pitchforks and torches is because the system works and has done, no matter who is in charge, for decades.

 

Perhaps you think this way because you have been raised during "The Age of the Self". I am convinced that most people would love to get involved in community/social projects if they knew that those projects would benefit everybody, plus if they were fun, sociable events. Most people today feel that they have no purpose/orientation - working together for collective aims (and by collective I do not mean in the national sense, but for humanity) would be a great way to remedy that. I have volunteered many times and have alway loved it - I worked hard, but felt much more rewarded because I knew I was "giving" because I wanted to, not because I was contracted by a "master" to be at a given location at 8 and to stay at that location until 5.

 

There will be plenty of time for fishing, painting, hoverboarding...but the human mind needs more than pure entertainment.

 

As for your other point - the reason we do not stand outside parliament with "pitchforks" is not because the system works well. There are many complex reasons for this, including overall feelings of disempowerment, that the old forms of protest don't work, that people are distracted by the "shiny things" the elites sell to us on their "shiny credit cards" manufactured in their overseas factories.

 

How can you say things are working well? Are you wearing a blindfold?

 

If you're going to opt out of money, you'll have to accept that the people who currently produce the food/machinery/medical/technological advances are part of the money system and you'll be opting out them as well. You could interface with the money system in some way, in which case you'll either have to provide them with goods/services for what you require (in which case it's payment in kind and haven't really left the system) or rely on them to donate them to you for free (in which case you are dependent of the system you want to get away from).

 

 

How are you going to provide the 'big things' - particularly on the scale for the current population? Transport links (e.g. road/rail)? How are you going to get enough food into London?

 

 

No but you need a system of supporting people doing long term research that will have no immediate benefit - or even any at all. How would you organise such a thing?

 

 

 

No they weren't. They were developed so the US military would have a communications network that could survive nuclear attack.

 

Why will people live in London as they do now? Why will millions be concentrated in cities? Cities developed out of the existing slave/monetary system. You seem to think I am suggesting that society should be exactly as it is now minus money/waged work. Think about it some more.

 

Transport hubs - current transportation systems are again based upon slavery/money - working collectively, imaginatively, transport would serve the needs/wants of people not to get people to work at 8.30. There is no reason why humans cannot achieve better systems.

 

Just think about it some more - thinking in the same old patterns, trying to imagine current systems without money etc does not work for money is the current system. think in global terms, think in human potential terms...

[tinfoilhat]

Perhaps you think this way because you have been raised during "The Age of the Self". I am convinced that most people would love to get involved in community/social projects if they knew that those projects would benefit everybody, plus if they were fun, sociable events. Most people today feel that they have no purpose/orientation - working together for collective aims (and by collective I do not mean in the national sense, but for humanity) would be a great way to remedy that. I have volunteered many times and have alway loved it - I worked hard, but felt much more rewarded because I knew I was "giving" because I wanted to, not because I was contracted by a "master" to be at a given location at 8 and to stay at that location until 5.

 

There will be plenty of time for fishing, painting, hoverboarding...but the human mind needs more than pure entertainment.

 

As for your other point - the reason we do not stand outside parliament with "pitchforks" is not because the system works well. There are many complex reasons for this, including overall feelings of disempowerment, that the old forms of protest don't work, that people are distracted by the "shiny things" the elites sell to us on their "shiny credit cards" manufactured in their overseas factories.

 

How can you say things are working well? Are you wearing a blindfold?

...

 

In the developed world things are generally ok. I have clean water, indoor plumbing, I'm fed and live in a house. Most people do in Europe. What are you missing bar a sense of empowerment that will make your life better ?

 

How many people die in the uk of starvation, disentry and various other nasties that are common place in the third world ? Not many. Now if you want everyone, globally to have the same be prepared for a BIG drop in living standards and/or a totally knackered planet.

 

Anyway, you are still going along the assumption I, and many others want to work for free/advancement of mankind/fuzzy feelings. For anymore than the odd afternoon if it's raining out maybe, but free beer and bacon sarnies after though, I'm not bothered. I'm getting stuff on a plate so have lots of leisure time - what can you to me to convince I'm not in a vast majority and your view isn't a teeny tiny less than say, 5% ? Those figures need to be switched round for your vision to work.

 

EDIT - one quick point, can you name me three major inventions that were born from fun, social volenteering projects ? I can name a whole bunch that came about because of war and money !!

[altus]

Why will people live in London as they do now? Why will millions be concentrated in cities? Cities developed out of the existing slave/monetary system. You seem to think I am suggesting that society should be exactly as it is now minus money/waged work. Think about it some more.

Lots of people like living in large, vibrant cities - e.g. for the wide range of leasure activities that are not available in small villages. (And no they needn't involve money.) Think about the practicalities of what you're suggesting some more.

 

Transport hubs - current transportation systems are again based upon slavery/money - working collectively, imaginatively, transport would serve the needs/wants of people not to get people to work at 8.30. There is no reason why humans cannot achieve better systems.

What makes you think people only want to travel to get to work? Or are you just assuming in your new society people will no longer want to travel, or perhaps they'll be prevented from doing so.

 

Just think about it some more - thinking in the same old patterns, trying to imagine current systems without money etc does not work for money is the current system. think in global terms, think in human potential terms...

Coming up with airy fairy ideas is all very well. Try suggesting some practical things that might make such a system work. Deflecting any criticism by repeating "think about it some more" shows you have no real idea how such a society might work.