Explaining money and work to children

[Vague_Boy]

At what point should we explain to our children that money is actually debt

 

Don't you mean that most money is created in the form of debt? That's not quite the same thing.

 

Might as well tell 'em that money has no intrinsic value and if you want more of it, just create it out of thin air.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* LEGAL NOTE: Creating your own money out of thin air is illegal, unless you are a central bank.

[Dew Chains]

Thanks for your replies guys.

 

I'll admit I can't argue against people who are happy/content with the current system or against those who think trying to create alternatives is somehow fairytale/fluffy etc.

 

I don't understand this mindset but I am willing to accept it.

 

I feel as I imagined pioneering Roman slaves felt when confronted with slaves who said they were happy with the current system. Or those in the mid-19th century who balked against reformers stating they were happy working 16 hours a day and sending their children down the mines. Or those early 20th century folk who laughed in the face of people like Robert Tressel and stated they were happy working and doffing their caps to their masters.

 

Just a note for those who seem to think that people who yearn for dismantling this system of slavery are kaftan sandal wearing hippies who sit crossed-legged in fields strumming guitars - I am none of the above, quite the contrary. I'm just an individual who can see that the current social imbalances are completely inexcusable.

[skinz]

Thanks for your replies guys.

 

I'll admit I can't argue against people who are happy/content with the current system or against those who think trying to create alternatives is somehow fairytale/fluffy etc.

 

I don't understand this mindset but I am willing to accept it.

 

I feel as I imagined pioneering Roman slaves felt when confronted with slaves who said they were happy with the current system. Or those in the mid-19th century who balked against reformers stating they were happy working 16 hours a day and sending their children down the mines. Or those early 20th century folk who laughed in the face of people like Robert Tressel and stated they were happy working and doffing their caps to their masters.

 

Just a note for those who seem to think that people who yearn for dismantling this system of slavery are kaftan sandal wearing hippies who sit crossed-legged in fields strumming guitars - I am none of the above, quite the contrary. I'm just an individual who can see that the current social imbalances are completely inexcusable.

 

I think we're all a little to concerned with the bogey man and who is or isn't signing on the dole to be interested in deeper philosophical mootings.

[*_ash_*]

At what age do you think we should explain the concepts of "money" and "work" to our children?

 

From a very early age, but perhaps not the way you have explained it - simply because they won't understand. See later.

 

At what point should we explain to our children that money is actually debt and that the essence of debt is slavery?

 

I'd say probably leave that to see if they are interested in deeper concepts in later years, maybe teens. Most people don't really think this far, and manage ok. Lemmings really, but I know lots of happy Lemmings.

 

At what point should we explain to our children that life, after state and private propaganda institutions have "educated" them, is essentially about wage slavery, followed by a brief period of ill health on subsistence pensions?

 

Young children definitely won't be interested in that.

 

At what point do we explain to them that the work they will be forced to do will not benefit society or the natural environment, neither will it contribute to mental wellbeing, but only serves to enrich a cabal of elite "rulers" - their masters?

 

Rather than explaining that they will be forced to work etc. which won't encourage them to work - when in a large society it is pretty much required unless you have land.

 

At what point do we explain to them that they have been born into slavery?

 

Again, I doubt a young child will understand this (in our society).

 

-

 

I think the best way to explain it to a young person: Imagine you have a community in a forest with 10 people - then if they ALL go out and hunt for food, there is clearly an inefficiency. Far better to send out a few hunters maybe 5, then the other 5 deal with keeping fires going, keeping the home safe from predators etc. (make up your own story). Creating efficiency is the wisest move. As the community grows, they might want to trade with another community (perhaps things that the hunters have caught - or things that the other 5 have mastered, and trade for things that they can't get). Talk some more about these communities getting bigger until a point where it's even further efficient to have a value to certain trades/items/catches etc. This could be in the form of something that is recognised throughout all the communities as valuable. A mineral perhaps. The point being what is today paper money.

 

For a younger child, perhaps change all these people to rabbits. And money for carrots. Any excess carrots can be traded with other communities.

 

When they are slightly older, add that the rabbits are really controlled by the squirrels, and the squirrels are devious buggers, etc.

 

If they become interested in politics in their teens, alter the rabbits back to people, and the squirrels to whomever you don't like and see if they follow it

[BIGDINNERS]

At what age do you think we should explain the concepts of "money" and "work" to our children?

 

At what point should we explain to our children that money is actually debt and that the essence of debt is slavery?

 

At what point should we explain to our children that life, after state and private propaganda institutions have "educated" them, is essentially about wage slavery, followed by a brief period of ill health on subsistence pensions?

 

At what point do we explain to them that the work they will be forced to do will not benefit society or the natural environment, neither will it contribute to mental wellbeing, but only serves to enrich a cabal of elite "rulers" - their masters?

 

At what point do we explain to them that they have been born into slavery?

 

If this is the way you look at modern society,the answer is simple..

Dont have kids:rant:

this way you dont have the responsibility of teaching them how to earn a living and get along in life.

Bit contrary really if you think about it,how are you posting on here in the first place:confused:abacus and carrier pigeon:huh: who do you think supplies the computer and internet service you use to air your views:loopy:

[Cyclone]

All the above can be achieved without money in its current form (ultimately without any form of money)

 

All of the above can be achieved without wage slavery

 

Community responsibility, mutual aid, voluntaryism are infinitely better social mechanisms

 

Do you really think a society would stand around and say oh, there's no water...duh...better lay down and die then!? The same applies to food etc

Someone with excess water might agree to trade it to you for a basket of apples. Or to save you carrying the water away to the chair maker (you actually wanted a new chair you see), you might agree to set up a system of using tokens to which you will assign a notional value and all agree to honour. You can then exchange your apples for tokens, and subsequently exchange the tokens for a chair. We'll call this money.

Notice how nobody was enslaved in it's creation.

 

We do not need "masters" to tell us how we should spend our brief lives

You do need shelter, food and water though, they don't appear for free.

 

 

Most work is absolutely meaningless, achieves nothing, destroys rather than creates. Planned and perceived obsolescence are perfect examples of how ridiculous our current slave system is...

Maybe that's just your job.

 

It's about time people woke up - I can't believe we're still enslaved by ignorance in the 21st century

I can't believe that we managed to create a global internet and you used money to buy a computer to then complain about how you have to work for money for a living.

[Hammerstein]

I agree. I've spent many years studying past revolutions. They don't work. Evolution? A slow process that often evolves in the wrong direction (to suit elites) Perhaps punctuated equilibrium? But that will only be brought about through collective will - and without the interference of the media/govt/elites who only want perpetuate an unequal system. A sort of speedy evolution where people choose to collectively ignore govt/elites etc.

 

I disagree with 'punctuated equilibrium', or at least I'm looking at things on a more long term basis. I think that if the assumption which underline these ideas are accurate then, given enough time, we will naturally evolve towards it. Obviously there will be wrong turns but there always is with learning. It's the same as with an individual.

 

The main way of tackling things for me is through education (check out my thread of education from a couple of days ago). The educational system essentially has the attitude that children's personal interests are irrelevant and that curruculum knows what knowledge and skills are best for every child to learn. This atittude, I believe, produces people with precisely the same attitude - people who have no cusiosity (because they see not point in it) but are more than able to jump through the educational hoops as and when it suits them. Many, of course, resent the whole thing and choose to fight it and refuse to jump through the hoops.

 

What you get is people who see education and learning as distinctly separate from life at large - something you need to do in a classroom or at a university. What you get then are people who have nothing to do with their spare time other than consume things - TV shows, films, books etc - and have little ability or motivation to learn and create things instead. The interaction with the world is fixed and rigid, rather them being active participants in an immediate world which is changeable, rearrangeable and which they change and rearranage on a constant basis. You might say that how things currently are serves the interests of certain people much more than a conscious, critically thinking populous and I would certainly agree with this, although I wouldn't say there is anything conscious involved in keeping things as they are.

 

The first step is to combat precisely this attitude in education though, in my opinion. Again though, I'm in the habit of looking at things on the long-term basis - even this would involve a gradual change because education is so all-encompassing that many people simply don't have a reference point against which to judge how things currently are. That's what makes things so difficult. Imagine trying to fight for gay rights in the 16th century; the prevailing idea would be so ubiquitous that it would be almost impossible to get people to even consider it, regardless of how legitimate the claim and the evidence for it may be.

 

This may seem like a massive plug (and it is ) but I've written about it already in the form of some poetic essays. I recorded them and they're on here: davepoetry.bandcamp.com/. Tracks 4 and 5 are about education and 9 and 10 are about the media and how it can 'imprison' people ('imprison' is a more combative term than I would like but I can't think of a better one). As a teacher I personally feel that, alongside potentially working in one of the few schools I agree with the principles of, a way forward is simply promoting these ideas as accessibly as possible and have people think about them. I'm not sure I alone will make much/any difference to anyone other than those naturally interested in thinking about things, but it's at least an attempt.

 

But anyway, long term is the way I look at it. I don't expect society at large to resemble anything even close to what you're talking about in my life time. Maybe something like it might arise in the next few hundred years (if society still exists). All I'd like to do is have some part in encouraging people to spend more time doing constructive things in the real world and less time watching television and buying things they don't need.

[skinz]

< Sorry, just saving bandwidth >

 

 

Excellent read.

 

Love the 16th century gay rights analogy..so cuttingly observant.

[Tomtom66]

At what age do you think we should explain the concepts of "money" and "work" to our children?

 

At what point should we explain to our children that money is actually debt and that the essence of debt is slavery?

 

At what point should we explain to our children that life, after state and private propaganda institutions have "educated" them, is essentially about wage slavery, followed by a brief period of ill health on subsistence pensions?

 

At what point do we explain to them that the work they will be forced to do will not benefit society or the natural environment, neither will it contribute to mental wellbeing, but only serves to enrich a cabal of elite "rulers" - their masters?

 

 

 

At what point do we explain to them that they have been born into slavery?

 

 

I'm guessing Erebus ......

[jfish1936]

oldskater's got my point.

 

 

Salk not patenting the polio vaccine was commendable but what did he live on whilst doing so?

 

Wikipaedia lists several funds which provided money for Salk's work, such as the "march of Dimes"

 

In his "history of Mankind" Hendrik Willem van Loon (January 14, 1882 – March 11, 1944) attempts to explain to children about money, and about how some acquire more of it than others.

Though a century old, its woth "Gutenberging"

 

Money is a token exchanged for value given and received. To me, a picture might be worth $100; that is, if it is offered for sale, that's how much I'd be willing to pay. To someone else, it may have a value based on who painted it, or the place depicted, and (s)he might be willing to pay $10,000.

 

My granddaughter (10 years old then) wanted to learn the flute, but couldn't afford one. Her father took on extra weekend work to earn the money for the flute. She treasures it, because she knows how WORK translated into AFFORDING what she wanted. It would not be so precious if I had simply written a cheque!