Osbornes medicine is working!

[Hillpig]

It is quite a pleasure to stumble into a proper debate on SF. That doesn't happen every day.

 

To answer your point, Hillpig, it might be that this is as good as it gets. If we look to Biology for inpiration, we see lots of systems that rise, peak and fall. Maybe wealth will behave in this way. Maybe we will have a prolonged period of no/low growth and a decline in living standards. Maybe that might not be such a bad thing.

 

It stands to reason that constant growth is impossible in the long term. Perhaps we are already seeing a different distribution of wealth, forced upon us by this economic storm. At the moment, we have people working less than they wish, but unemployment lower than it might be.

 

This might just be the future.

 

I have difficulty in visualising an alternative future, I agree if we carry on in the way we are there will be great difficulty. At the same time a world without economic growth and with a population of 9Billion by mid century is troubling.

 

What will people do? We surely cannot contemplate all becoming farmers, surely we must create the industies that will allow people to prosper and develop. To do this, it seems to me we need economic growth.

[SpikeMac]

I have difficulty in visualising an alternative future, I agree if we carry on in the way we are there will be great difficulty. At the same time a world without economic growth and with a population of 9Billion by mid century is troubling.

 

What will people do? We surely cannot contemplate all becoming farmers, surely we must create the industies that will allow people to prosper and develop. To do this, it seems to me we need economic growth.

 

There is always the short term fix of a revolution and a mass redistribution of wealth:)

 

Put me down for the fine wine. You can have the gold if you like:)

[beer]

There is always the short term fix of a revolution and a mass redistribution of wealth:)

 

Put me down for the fine wine. You can have the gold if you like

 

Brown already sold that to avoid cashing in when the price quadrupled.

[Hillpig]

I know you hate to be partisan Vague Boy so you could also include Anthony Barber or Nigel Lawson in that list!

 

Away from the party political to something a bit more sober. I was interested to read about the tributes to Margaret Thatcher after her passing a couple of weeks ago. The common consent was that her economic philosophy was based on thrift. If so, why did the debt / wages ratio of households rise from 40/50 % in 1970s to 90% by the end of her tenure?? The rhetoric and reality just don't add up in this or other instances (the family and law and order for instance).

 

I think the credit crunch is just one of the reckonings that we have all had to pay for the neo liberal experiment that Regan and Thatcher spearheaded.

 

---------- Post added 25-04-2013 at 13:12 ----------

 

 

Unemployment isn't only good news to those who like to chew the fat with their in the pub as you describe. It also depresses wage claims, and helps create an 'employer's market'.

 

The credit crunch was, in my opinion, the responsibility, in this country of Blair and particualrly Brown. I do not see how you can blame Thatcher, she was out of power for many years before the credit crunch.

 

Having said that, it is a recogniseable tactic of leftists to immediately blame their own faults on the Tories, Cameron and Osborne have only been in power for a fraction of the time Blair and Brown were yet in Labourspeak they are to blame.

 

It is this kind of politicing that sickens the majority of voters. Labour have objected to every move the Tories/Lib dems have made whilst making not a single policy alternative.

[Joseph Anton]

I have difficulty in visualising an alternative future, I agree if we carry on in the way we are there will be great difficulty. At the same time a world without economic growth and with a population of 9Billion by mid century is troubling.

 

What will people do? We surely cannot contemplate all becoming farmers, surely we must create the industies that will allow people to prosper and develop. To do this, it seems to me we need economic growth.

 

There is no shortage of growth in the world. It has just moved to the lower wage economies. China, India, SE Asia have seen growth excede 10% p.a at times during our recession.

The time of the west paying itself large annual pay rises has probably gone. We cannot do that if the population is prepared to buy goods made by cheap labour in Eastern Europe and Asia, and still making our industries more uncompetitive by wanting more for doing jobs the Chinese will do for 1/4 of the price.

[Hillpig]

There is always the short term fix of a revolution and a mass redistribution of wealth:)

 

Put me down for the fine wine. You can have the gold if you like:)

 

But if that wealth is illusory as the figures stated above indicate their is no real wealth to re distribute.

 

If the west is overdrawn and Brazil, Russia, India, China etc are holding the cash which one should we invade first? Or do you have some other theory regarding re distributon?

 

---------- Post added 25-04-2013 at 16:12 ----------

 

There is no shortage of growth in the world. It has just moved to the lower wage economies. China, India, SE Asia have seen growth excede 10% p.a at times during our recession.

The time of the west paying itself large annual pay rises has probably gone. We cannot do that if the population is prepared to buy goods made by cheap labour in Eastern Europe and Asia, and still making our industries more uncompetitive by wanting more for doing jobs the Chinese will do for 1/4 of the price.

 

I fully accept what you say but the context I made my comment in was in reply to our friend above who has interesting and challenging comments on the way economies run.

 

---------- Post added 25-04-2013 at 16:16 ----------

 

There is always the short term fix of a revolution and a mass redistribution of wealth:)

 

Put me down for the fine wine. You can have the gold if you like:)

 

 

Further to the above, in any case I cannot agree to your terms, I demand my share of the wine. (Australian Reds for preference).

[SpikeMac]

Brown already sold that to avoid cashing in when the price quadrupled.

 

You'd need to be looking at the folks who bought it then.

 

Always follow the money.

[Obelix]

Its the same as those who cry when petrol or beer goes up by 1p. But its gone done by several pence this past week or two.

 

Indeed. It was a pleasant surprise when I went to fill up this week and saw how much it had fallen.

 

Now if the same could be made to happen for beer...:-)

[NorthernStar]

The credit crunch was, in my opinion, the responsibility, in this country of Blair and particualrly Brown. I do not see how you can blame Thatcher, she was out of power for many years before the credit crunch.

 

Thatcher was the architect of the debt is profit mindset, Blair made his career on that very Thatcherite mindset and is culpable in putting himself before doing the right thing, Brown was Blair's patsy just a useful idiot.

 

Having said that, it is a recogniseable tactic of leftists to immediately blame their own faults on the Tories, Cameron and Osborne have only been in power for a fraction of the time Blair and Brown were yet in Labourspeak they are to blame.

 

It is this kind of politicing that sickens the majority of voters. Labour have objected to every move the Tories/Lib dems have made whilst making not a single policy alternative.

 

Your blinkered flag waving is a very good example of exactly how they've got away with it for so long. These career politicians are only interested in short term gain and not in doing the right thing for our country.

 

The current crop of filth are trying to pull off the same trick, unfortunately there's no more road left and that is why they appear to be throwing us under the bus.

[MrSmith]

Thatcher was the architect of the debt is profit mindset, Blair made his career on that very Thatcherite mindset and is culpable in putting himself before doing the right thing, Brown was Blair's patsy just a useful idiot.

 

 

 

Your blinkered flag waving is a very good example of exactly how they've got away with it for so long. These career politicians are only interested in short term gain and not in doing the right thing for our country.

 

The current crop of filth are trying to pull off the same trick, unfortunately there's no more road left and that is why they appear to be throwing us under the bus.

 

Never heard of that, what is it, as far as I am aware people went into debt to buy things a very long time before Thatcher was born.