Drones being operated in UK attacking Afghanistan

[Hillpig]

Not all Rulers behaved in this manner. Suleiman the Magnificent for instance allowed the Christian Knights of Rhodes to leave & settle in Malta after he had captured the walled City of Rhodes.

He was an exceptional person however & known for the fair & just manner in which he treat people despite the fact that he was an outstanding soldier & conqueror of huge parts of Africa & Europe.

 

He was also infatuated with his wife Roxelana & treat her as his equal, even discussing plans with her & taking her advice.

Which kind of shows up all this modern day nonsense with Muslims treating their women as possessions.

It is obvious that they act in that way simply because they wish to do so & not because of any religious requirement.

 

My comment was in response to the gentleman who inferred that attacks on non belligerents were a phenomenon of the 20th century. Sulieman was without doubt a great man.

 

My issue throughout has been that the Muslim religion is being hi jacked by the Wahabbis.

 

The Turks were never that fundamental, one of Mehmeds first acts on taking over in Constantinople was to reinstate the Orthodox church, he also contracted an Italian painter to illustrate his chambers with life representations( including some erotic content!)

[mjw47]

My comment was in response to the gentleman who inferred that attacks on non belligerents were a phenomenon of the 20th century. Sulieman was without doubt a great man.

 

My issue throughout has been that the Muslim religion is being hi jacked by the Wahabbis.

 

The Turks were never that fundamental, one of Mehmeds first acts on taking over in Constantinople was to reinstate the Orthodox church, he also contracted an Italian painter to illustrate his chambers with life representations( including some erotic content!)

 

The Wahhabi faction are I believe some sort of fundamentalist offshoot of the Sunni Muslim religion.

According to Wikipedia the Saudis have spent $87 billion promoting Wahhabism throughout the world.

Now if that's true, it makes this whole situation even more ridiculous than it seems at present.

 

Saudi Arabia appears to be at the heart of most of the problems. The 9/11 pilots/hijackers were Saudi citizens & their favoured religion is the instigator of hatred aimed at the West & our way of life.

 

Our response to this, apparently,is to treat the Saudis with kid gloves & bend over backwards in order to maintain our two way trade in oil & armaments.

Meanwhile, we traipse around the rest of the region killing & being killed, no doubt to the huge amusement of the Saudis who are funding all this mayhem with the money we give them for the oil.

[Hillpig]

The Wahhabi faction are I believe some sort of fundamentalist offshoot of the Sunni Muslim religion.

According to Wikipedia the Saudis have spent $87 billion promoting Wahhabism throughout the world.

Now if that's true, it makes this whole situation even more ridiculous than it seems at present.

 

Saudi Arabia appears to be at the heart of most of the problems. The 9/11 pilots/hijackers were Saudi citizens & their favoured religion is the instigator of hatred aimed at the West & our way of life.

 

Our response to this, apparently,is to treat the Saudis with kid gloves & bend over backwards in order to maintain our two way trade in oil & armaments.

Meanwhile, we traipse around the rest of the region killing & being killed, no doubt to the huge amusement of the Saudis who are funding all this mayhem with the money we give them for the oil.

 

Precisely, I find it equally galling that the gambling clubs, top end "hostess" clubs in London and elsewhere are used by the Saudi "Elite" whilst at home they imprison their own women and use the most barbaric means to keep the proletariat under control. Hypocrisy justified by a fundemental misreading of a great text.

[buck]

"Before the dawn of the 20th Century".

 

Richard Burton is not dead folks.

I'll have to remember to talk chav to you any time I'm likely to talk to you at all. Which in't likely innit.

[mjw47]

Precisely, I find it equally galling that the gambling clubs, top end "hostess" clubs in London and elsewhere are used by the Saudi "Elite" whilst at home they imprison their own women and use the most barbaric means to keep the proletariat under control. Hypocrisy justified by a fundemental misreading of a great text.

 

That is it though as regard to religion isn't it? All religions (as far as I'm aware) teach peace & tolerance as part of their creed, but there are also elements of each religion which can be taken out of context & used as an excuse for violence against non-believers.

 

The Bible for instance says 'turn the other cheek' it also however says 'an eye for an eye'. Leviticus also states something along the lines of 'he who touches the flesh of a pig should be put to death'.

Not certain of the complete accuracy of that last one, as I'm relying on President Bartlett of the West Wing for it's authenticity . But I'm sure he wouldn't lead me astray .

[Hillpig]

That is it though as regard to religion isn't it? All religions (as far as I'm aware) teach peace & tolerance as part of their creed, but there are also elements of each religion which can be taken out of context & used as an excuse for violence against non-believers.

 

The Bible for instance says 'turn the other cheek' it also however says 'an eye for an eye'. Leviticus also states something along the lines of 'he who touches the flesh of a pig should be put to death'.

Not certain of the complete accuracy of that last one, as I'm relying on President Bartlett of the West Wing for it's authenticity . But I'm sure he wouldn't lead me astray .

 

I stand to be corrected but my understanding is that the "turn the other cheek" is a teaching by Jesus and contained in the New Testament, an "eye for an eye" is old testament.

 

It seems to me that the teachings of Jesus tend to be tolerant, forgiving and kind. The Old testament much less so. Modern writers, admittedly from a western perspective seem to agree that Islam derived much of its source from The Old Testament, Paganism, Zoroaster and, to some extent, Christianity.

 

As an example, the cabala (excuse my spelling) the black stone which pious Muslims venerate on their Haj was originally a pagan object of worship not unlike Stonehenge.

 

Mohammed was obviously a clever as well as a pious man he did not overthrow the other older religions, he adapted them for his purpose. Incorporating them into a creed that although new must have seemed familiar to those he converted.

 

Such a situation must be prone to later interpretation e.g Sunni and Shia, but also in the sects that develop such as Wahabbism, and it in this sect that I believe we should be concerned about.

 

Please note that I merely express myself as I see it, I have no disrespect for the great religion of Islam, I have visited a number of Mosques in my lifetime in Istanbul, in Egypt, Tunisia, China and recently in Sheffield as a guest.

 

I have always been made welcome. No one has tried to convert me, I have never felt out of place or threatened. I believe that overall Islam is a force for good. It has however within it powerful dangerous and wealthy forces which we either resist or capitulate to. We cannot reason with these forces, they seek to destroy us.

[mjw47]

Hillpig. Wouldn't disagree with any of that. Christianity did very much the same thing of course, incorporating many of the old pagan feast days into it's rituals renaming them & presenting them as Christian.

The problem with fighting against a religion, as opposed to fighting a foreign power, is that all logic & pragmatism is discounted.

Where a Countries leaders will eventually come to the conclusion that further conflict is doing more damage than good to their cause, & reach an agreement with the enemy, religious fanatics will fight on regardless.

 

We need to come up with a new way of dealing with the problem. At the moment it's like trying to kill a swarm of wasps with a tennis racket with half the strings missing.

[Hillpig]

Hillpig. Wouldn't disagree with any of that. Christianity did very much the same thing of course, incorporating many of the old pagan feast days into it's rituals renaming them & presenting them as Christian.

The problem with fighting against a religion, as opposed to fighting a foreign power, is that all logic & pragmatism is discounted.

Where a Countries leaders will eventually come to the conclusion that further conflict is doing more damage than good to their cause, & reach an agreement with the enemy, religious fanatics will fight on regardless.

 

We need to come up with a new way of dealing with the problem. At the moment it's like trying to kill a swarm of wasps with a tennis racket with half the strings missing.

 

My point exactly. Unfortunately, to use your analogy, we need to keep swatting until, as you say we come up with a solution. "Swatting" at the moment ends up killing innocent people as well, and sometimes instead of, those we should be targeting.

 

We should talk to those who will talk to us and hope that eventually the others will come in from the cold.

 

I fear that what we are seeing now is actually the continuance of a confrontation between east and west that blows hot and cold. Some will date it (as to some extent I have done) to the emergence of Islam. Others will go back further to when the Persians attacked Greece or even to the siege of Troy.

 

Until humans evolve they will continue to kill each other. It is the way we are programmed. If God did make us he is not a good engineer.

[Harleyman]

God (or something) gave us air to breath, sun to warm us, winds to cool us, mountains to climb, soil to grow food, beasts to comfort, serve and feed us, trees to shade us, rivers and oceans to sail and fish and all natures beauty for us to enjoy.

 

Then he said "Get on with it and enjoy"

 

What we have made of earth and ourselves is strictly our own fault. Nothing to do with a god. Too bad that so many in their ignorance have used "god" to create the hell on earth that so many live in

 

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For the land of the free and the home of the brave

[Waldo]

Until humans evolve they will continue to kill each other. It is the way we are programmed. If God did make us he is not a good engineer.

 

I've evolved. I'm just waiting for everyone else to catch up. Yeah, I know there's only like 6.8 billion other people, but come on people, do try and catch up now.