Does God Exist?

[plekhanov]

There is some archaeological evidence that does give some credibility to the history described in the Old Testament, but most archaeologists have now stopped trying to tie the historical narrative to excavated remains.

 

I'm not sure whether this is due to more to modern politics, modern archaeological theory or the fact that the evidence rarely stacks with the text.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology

 

John Romer's 1988 book 'Testament: the Bible and History' is a good introduction to the subject.

You are being massively too generous to the bible, there's the occasional bit of evidence which it is possible to tie in with places mentioned in the bible but that's a world away from saying it gives "credibility to the history described in the Old Testament".

 

Both the genesis creation myths have obviously been comprehensively disproved as has Noah's flood. Even something like the Exodus, which is clearly a hugely important story in Judaism, that stripped of it's supernatural trappings might seem vaguely possible has been comprehensively disproved by archaeology.

 

Looking rather later in a time from when we have both archaeological and written records there's not even a contemporary mention of Jesus existing nor much more damningly of any of the really rather noteworthy occurrences (hours of darkness during the day, great earthquakes...) that the bible claims accompanied his death & resurrection.

 

Archaeological findings have shown that the bible is incredibly unreliable even when it comes to core events like the Exodus which might have seemed somewhat plausible if the supernatural embellishments were discounted. Rather than saying archaeology gives "some credibility to the history described in the Old Testament" it would be rather more accurate to say archaeological evidence has debunked aspects of the OT that might reasonably have been expected to have some historical basis and as such overall has served further strip the bible of credibility.

[Campanula]

You might be right, and if I can ask you, what would you call that 'something'?

 

The Blind Watch Maker

[Campanula]

Well in that case the lack of love for god in my heart is proof that God indeed does not exist.

 

Love it!!!

[Grahame]

The Blind Watch Maker

 

Dawkins says inanimate objects like cogs in a watch cannot design and assemble themselves which in my view makes the case for an intelligent watchmaker even more imperative.

[Grahame]

Duplicate post

Edited July 4, 2010 by Grahame

[Grahame]

Well in that case the lack of love for god in my heart is proof that God indeed does not exist.

 

Love it!!!

 

Well in that case my lack of love for Britney Spears in my heart is proof that Britney indeed does not exist.

 

(Is there something wrong with the way an atheists brain is wired up?)

Edited July 4, 2010 by Grahame

[flamingjimmy]

Well in that case my lack of love for Britney Spears in my heart is proof that Britney indeed does not exist.

 

(Is there something wrong with the way an atheists brain is wired up?)

 

My post was a response to 'jewboy' saying "God does indeed exist but the only proof i have is the love i have for him in my heart."

 

I was highlighting the silliness of his argument by making a joke, maybe there's something wrong with the way your brain is wired up if you thought I was serious.

[[Matt]]

Well in that case my lack of love for Britney Spears in my heart is proof that Britney indeed does not exist.

 

(Is there something wrong with the way an atheists brain is wired up?)

No there's something wrong with yours if you cannot recognise jimmy was not being serious with his comment but instead responding to the ridiculous with his own ridicule... Is sarcasm an alien concept to you?

[Karis]

Well in that case my lack of love for Britney Spears in my heart is proof that Britney indeed does not exist.

 

(Is there something wrong with the way an atheists brain is wired up?)

 

You're twisting things here, as you KNOW there's truth to Britney's existence as you can see her on TV and hear her on her records, and see her in the millions of magazines featuring her on a daily basis...

 

Whether that's the whole truth - it's hard to say, but there's very very strong evidence to suggest that Britney exists. You don't have to rely on faith, you could simply go see her in concert.

[Cavegirl]

You are being massively too generous to the bible, there's the occasional bit of evidence which it is possible to tie in with places mentioned in the bible but that's a world away from saying it gives "credibility to the history described in the Old Testament".

 

Perhaps I'm 'massively too generous' because I've spent the majority of my adult life studying Egyptology and archaeology and working as an environmental archaeologist.

 

Both the genesis creation myths have obviously been comprehensively disproved as has Noah's flood. Even something like the Exodus, which is clearly a hugely important story in Judaism, that stripped of it's supernatural trappings might seem vaguely possible has been comprehensively disproved by archaeology.

 

Noah's flood is an interesting example and should not be dismissed as quickly as you seem to think. In 1955 a series of tablets were recovered from Meggido in Palestine, which predate the Israelite presence in the Promised Land, that are known collectively as the Epic of Gilgamesh. In the story "Utnapishtim, the hero of the Flood myth, tells his story to Gilgamesh, which is related to the Babylonian Epic of Atrahasis" (1). In the Sumerian epic the gods destroyed mankind because the population had become too numerous and chaotic and the god Enki decided to save one man who was to build a cube shaped vessel that would save the seeds of all living things. The deluge lasted 7 days.

 

The Old Testament therefore seems to draw upon earlier sources of Sumerian tradition and it proves that the Hebrew writers of the day did not exist in a vacuum, but shared and adapted the current traditions of fellow people in the Middle East. There is evidence of severe flood events all across the Middle East that date throughout the period- any one of these could have led to the development of an oral tradition that was eventually to become legend in the Epic of Gilgamesh and later the Old Testament.

 

Looking rather later in a time from when we have both archaeological and written records there's not even a contemporary mention of Jesus existing nor much more damningly of any of the really rather noteworthy occurrences (hours of darkness during the day, great earthquakes...) that the bible claims accompanied his death & resurrection.

 

Well most people are aware that Jesus Christ serves as a metaphor rather than a true human figure. 'Christus' translates as the 'messiah'. His birth, his death and many of the stories surrounding his life have astrological and metaphorical significance. However, many of the places he was said in the Bible to visit do exist- Allenby Bridge on the River Jordan is the traditional site of the baptism of Jesus at Beth-Abarah, the rock tombs in Jerusalem also exist and are known as the Silwan Necropolis.

 

There are also some early Roman sources that mention Christ. In 116AD, for example, Tacitus wrote -

 

"Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius 14–37 at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

 

Archaeological findings have shown that the bible is incredibly unreliable even when it comes to core events like the Exodus which might have seemed somewhat plausible if the supernatural embellishments were discounted. Rather than saying archaeology gives "some credibility to the history described in the Old Testament" it would be rather more accurate to say archaeological evidence has debunked aspects of the OT that might reasonably have been expected to have some historical basis and as such overall has served further strip the bible of credibility.

 

In terms of the Exodus, there are interesting sites at Khatana-Qantir and Tell el-Dab'a that contain a Semitic cultural layer on top of the Middle Kingdom Egyptian layer, which indicates that Palestinian/ Syrian nomads were present in Egypt. Interestingly, although the Egyptians never wrote of minority people's such as the Hebrews, there is an Egyptian folklore, that is ascribed to Manetho in the 3rd century BC that describes the Egyptians throwing out a gang of plague-bringers and driving them to Palestine where they founded Jerusalem. John Romer has also linked a number of the Egyptian pharoahs mentioned in the Bible with real pharoahs that we know existed based upon the Abydos King list, the Palermo stone and the Saqqara tablet etc.

 

I don't really think it's fair to judge the Bible's historicity by modern standards. We are obsessed with dates, linear time and facts, they were obsessed with genealogy, cyclical time and oral legends. I've discussed some of the archaeological evidence that relates to the points you raised, but Biblical archaeology is a massive subject and there is plenty more evidence out there. As such, I hope I've proved to you that your view, whilst not being entirely wrong, is far too simplistic.

 

I'm not saying that the Bible is a perfect historical account, it is very far from it. The Bible is a religious, philosophical and metaphorical text with some basis on skewed oral traditions and cultural adaptations that originally developed from real events and real places. For me, it's no more or less interesting than the other ancient texts, whether written in cuneiform, hieroglyphics, demotic script or ancient Greek that bring to life the world's prehistoric past and give us a fascinating insight into the minds of past peoples.

 

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

Edited July 4, 2010 by Cavegirl