Leading Tory Nigel Evans arrested for rape and sexual assault

[MrSmith]

That is what initiatives like Stop it Now are for. Oddly enough, of all the paedophiles I spoke to in a former role, only one took the number.and wanted to stop.

 

I disagree with you, paedophilia is not an orientation.

 

It is in some parts of the world, but we will have to agree to disagree.

[skinz]

This is the problem with people like you, you want retribution and appear to have very little interest in stopping the abuse, I on the other think it would be better to stop the abuse from happening and that can’t happen whilst the majority of people think like you.

 

---------- Post added 07-05-2013 at 12:30 ----------

 

 

What do you think the difference is other than some are illegal and not considered to be normal?

 

Just to get things back into perspective.. Are you suggesting that

 

1) We should all empathize with the plight of the paedophile?

 

2) We should welcome the paedophile into our communities so as to understand their plight and by doing so the risk becomes reduced?

[MrSmith]

When were paedophiles considered to be normal and by whom? In the days of Victorian child brothels the age of consent was raised from 13 to 16 as a backlash against the exploitation of children. Paedophilia wasn't acceptable even if it was widespread.

 

The difference between homosexuality and paedophilia is not that one is legal and the other illegal but that homosexuality is legal between consenting people. The word consenting is key. Children are not considered by the law to be of the same state of awareness as adults and are deemed to be in need of protection. You can't think - although you may - that a child of 10 is not in need of more legal protection than an adult of 20.

 

But it didn't used to be.

 

Child brides were common in 1600's and still are in some parts of the world, I am not for one moment saying we should be going back to those times but we do need to understand that paedophilia is quite common and until these people are accepted as people that need help and not abuse, the problem won’t go away.

 

---------- Post added 07-05-2013 at 12:43 ----------

 

Just to get things back into perspective.. Are you suggesting that

 

1) We should all empathize with the plight of the paedophile?

 

2) We should welcome the paedophile into our communities so as to understand their plight and by doing so the risk becomes reduced?

 

That about sums it up and they already live in your community, you just don't know who they are, one might even be a family member or close friend.

[skinz]

 

That about sums it up and they already live in your community, you just don't know who they are, one might even be a family member or close friend.

 

 

So you're suggesting that you can empathize because you have a capacity to recognize emotions specifically that are being experienced by a paedophile?

 

Correct, most paedophiles live within the community..their usually dads or uncles who cause horrific crimes to the vulnerable..you're suggesting that by accepting that we know who they are and welcome openness the crimes will decrease..which surely indicates it's a choice. If they can chose to desist or curb their hobby because of openness and understanding then they can surely desist because of public abhorrence..or again are you concluding that they will only change if the public's perception of them changes..which is tantamount to ransom control?..nothing new there.

 

If your wife was found to be sexually abusing your child over a period of years..what would be your reaction? Counselling?

[Suffragette1]

But it didn't used to be.

 

Child brides were common in 1600's and still are in some parts of the world, I am not for one moment saying we should be going back to those times but we do need to understand that paedophilia is quite common and until these people are accepted as people that need help and not abuse, the problem won’t go away.

 

---------- Post added 07-05-2013 at 12:43 ----------

 

 

That about sums it up and they already live in your community, you just don't know who they are, one might even be a family member or close friend.

 

Yes, we know that but you are approaching it from the wrong angle. Understanding why they offend is not going to prevent them from offending which is why we have to do everything possible to ensure that an offender is placed in custody. What you're suggesting is that we accept and tolerate it, so then what? If it is a natural immutable orientation as you suggest, then we cannot prevent it. By accepting paedophiles they are somehow never supposed to act out their fantasies?

 

I must have missed them but Skinz asked you a while back to provide links to the research that you are referring to. Apart from the LA Times link, have you provided any others other than Henley's rather revolting article which totally minimised the effects of child sexual abuse and did not give survivors a voice.

 

---------- Post added 07-05-2013 at 14:05 ----------

 

[MrSmith]

So you're suggesting that you can empathize because you have a capacity to recognize emotions specifically that are being experienced by a paedophile?

 

 

There aren’t any emotions specifically experienced by paedophiles, paedophile lives with the same emotions as everyone else, they are just sexually attracted to very young children as opposed to adults, sexual attraction is different for everyone, what I find attractive in a person will be different to what you find attractive in a person. The difference being we can legally pursue a relationship with the people we find attractive, be they men or women. Now imagine life being sexually attracted to a specific group of people that are out of bounds, you find no one else other than this group attractive, you have no interest in having a relationship with anyone outside the group you are attracted to.

 

---------- Post added 07-05-2013 at 14:25 ----------

 

Yes, we know that but you are approaching it from the wrong angle. Understanding why they offend is not going to prevent them from offending which is why we have to do everything possible to ensure that an offender is placed in custody.

I haven't said an offender shouldn't be place in custody, I'm more interesting in prevention though which is significantly better for the children, you appear more interested in shutting the door after the horse as bolted. (Retribution)

 

 

 

What you're suggesting is that we accept and tolerate it, so then what? If it is a natural immutable orientation as you suggest, then we cannot prevent it. By accepting paedophiles they are somehow never supposed to act out their fantasies?

 

You are confusing sexual orientation with fantasy, and child abuse with paedophilia. Paedophiles are attracted in the same way as everyone else, but to a group of people that are out of bounds, there are ways in which they can fulfil their sexual desires without abusing children. Many adults use other means to fulfil their sexual desires without having sex with someone else.

[Suffragette1]

There aren’t any emotions specifically experienced by paedophiles, paedophile lives with the same emotions as everyone else, they are just sexually attracted to very young children as opposed to adults, sexual attraction is different for everyone, what I find attractive in a person will be different to what you find attractive in a person. The difference being we can legally pursue a relationship with the people we find attractive, be they men or women. Now imagine life being sexually attracted to a specific group of people that are out of bounds, you find no one else other than this group attractive, you have no interest in having a relationship with anyone outside the group you are attracted to.

 

---------- Post added 07-05-2013 at 14:25 ----------

 

I haven't said an offender shouldn't be place in custody, I'm more interesting in prevention though which is significantly better for the children, you appear more interested in shutting the door after the horse as bolted. (Retribution)

 

 

 

 

 

You are confusing sexual orientation with fantasy, and child abuse with paedophilia. Paedophiles are attracted in the same way as everyone else, but to a group of people that are out of bounds, there are ways in which they can fulfil their sexual desires without abusing children. Many adults use other means to fulfil their sexual desires without having sex with someone else.

 

So how do you suggest prevention? Getting them to identitfy themselves in this brave new world and then what? If it is an orientation, how do we prevent it and offending? No, I am not only interested in retribution.

 

I am not confusing anything with anything, I ask you questions and you choose to ignore them. What is your experience in this area? You haven't quoted any credible research, you've cited one case study and thrown Henley's pro-paedophilia article into the arena.

 

Please suggest some of these ways that paedophiles can fulfil their fantasies without abusing children. I don't normally use the term paedophile as it's a weasel word but for the purposes of this argument, I am.

[quisquose]

I think the problem with that is you begin to tailor justice from the outset. If you're going to have rules then the rules should apply to all..or not at all. I understand your reasoning for the above but all they do is pander to the mob. It's the mob and their reasoning that's at fault.

If a man is arrested or questioned he should have no fear..but mob mentality is mud sticks. If a man is questioned and the line is found unwarranted then that should be it. It isn't the way we apply law that's at fault, it's how the mob and their DM mentality perceive it..changing the way we presently apply would have nothing to do with justice..it would just feed the hard of thinking.

 

Those arguing for change could equally argue that naming should only happen when found guilty..after all a man is innocent until? My personal opinion is the law exists to protect people, not feed them. Either name names or not at all.

 

I agree with you.

 

There's too much emphasis on this 2/3rds of the population thinks ...

 

It's not either name names or not at all though, it's leaving those investigating each individual case to decide whether to name or not. There are times when it's in the best interests of the investigation to have reporting restrictions, but the mob's inability not to jump to conclusions is not one of them.

[MrSmith]

So how do you suggest prevention? Getting them to identitfy themselves in this brave new world and then what? If it is an orientation, how do we prevent it and offending? No, I am not only interested in retribution.

 

 

What would you do to fulfil your sexual desires if you didn’t have a sexual partner?

 

I've been suggesting throughout that we can't even start to fully understand paedophilia and the problems it causes unstill the majority accept them as normal people with a different sexual preference, much like homosexuality wasn’t fully understood until we accepted them as normal people with different sexual preferences. At one time homosexuality was considered to be a mental illness, but now it’s considered to be a normal sexual preference.

[Jeffrey Shaw]

What would you do to fulfil your sexual desires if you didn’t have a sexual partner?

Self-control might not be unreasonable. People are not animals.