How is British history taught in schools?

[mjw47]

Harleyman.

 

There appears to be some confusion arising here. You appear to be under the impression that I view ALL rich & successful people as scumbags. Nothing could be further from the truth. My derogatory remarks were aimed at specific people. Those who seek fame & fortune KNOWING that the methods which they are employing will result in harm to other people & not caring as long as it brings them what they want.

 

There are countless instances of people becoming incredibly rich whilst actually benefiting society.

 

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffet, Richard Branson, James Dyson to name a few. None of these people set out with any intention of harming anyone, they just wanted wealth. They succeeded, I'm impressed.

 

Now compare & contrast their careers with that of Dick Cheney CEO of Halliburton & Vice President of the USA.

A man who made fortunes out of the results of war & who was in a position to influence the taking part in war.

A man who applied for, & received, five draft deferments which kept him out of the Vietnam war because, in his words 'I had other priorities in the 60s than military service.'

 

Yeah, I bet he did, not getting killed being right at the top of them.

This man had no problem in requiring other men to put their lives at risk to enrich his bank balance & his place in history.

Guess what I think of Cheney?

 

Incidentally I started & ran my own business successfully for 16 years, I am not a socialist nor any other kind of ist for that matter. I admire people who build successful businesses & am pleased for them if it results in enriching them & their families.

 

As to having a go on the Lottery from time to time what's that got to do with anything? So do I occasionally, who's it harming?

[Hillpig]

This is straying into alternative 'what if.....' history now.

 

Hugely enjoyable though.

 

My fault entirely , my apologies.

 

But if I may just dream on a bit, Harleyman says that war between Japan and the US was virtually inevitable, may I suggest another scenario, under the Axis, had Germany and Japan attacked Russia, (and Russia feared this). The raw materials Japan sought could well have been obtained had the attack and invasion of eastern Russia been successfull.

 

This would have kept the US out of the war, increased her isolationist tendency and worked in the UKs favour.

 

Sorry I will shut up now.

[Harleyman]

My fault entirely , my apologies.

 

But if I may just dream on a bit, Harleyman says that war between Japan and the US was virtually inevitable, may I suggest another scenario, under the Axis, had Germany and Japan attacked Russia, (and Russia feared this). The raw materials Japan sought could well have been obtained had the attack and invasion of eastern Russia been successfull.

 

This would have kept the US out of the war, increased her isolationist tendency and worked in the UKs favour.Sorry I will shut up now.

 

 

I dont see how a policy of keeping the US isolated would have benefited Britain in any way unless the idea was to maintain Britain's status as one of the great powers.

 

In 1939 the Empire was already coming apart. How would Halfax have dealt with the likes of Nehru and Ghandi for instance? There was a rising nationalism not only in India but in Africa and the middle east as well. It was the beginning of a tide that was turning against all European colonial powers. In French Indo-China such nationalists as Ho Chi Minh were already working towards getting rid of the French even before Japan invaded and occupied Indo-China and although China was ruled by Chiang Kai Zek and some parts of the country under Japanese occupation Mao Tse Tung's Communist army was already a large force and gathering more and more strength by the month.

 

The rest of the world outside Europe and Russia was changing rapidly

 

As for the US it was completely self sufficient in oil, minerals, coal, food, raw materials, had a population of around 125 million, a huge reserve of manpower and the potential industrial capability to out produce any European nation in everything from consumer goods to military hardware

 

With a scenario of Britain now on peace terms with Nazi Germany if not it's ally even...... Canada, Australia and New Zealand would have very possibly withdrawn from the Commonwealth and gone their own way, Canada eventually uniting politically with the US

 

That's how I see it happening anyway

[Michael_W]

Schools would do well to teach how these little islands in the NW corner of Europe had so much influence on the modern world, in a few hundred years it may become so much more insignificant than it is seen now !

[Harleyman]

Harleyman.

 

There appears to be some confusion arising here. You appear to be under the impression that I view ALL rich & successful people as scumbags. Nothing could be further from the truth. My derogatory remarks were aimed at specific people. Those who seek fame & fortune KNOWING that the methods which they are employing will result in harm to other people & not caring as long as it brings them what they want.

 

There are countless instances of people becoming incredibly rich whilst actually benefiting society.

 

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffet, Richard Branson, James Dyson to name a few. None of these people set out with any intention of harming anyone, they just wanted wealth. They succeeded, I'm impressed.

 

Now compare & contrast their careers with that of Dick Cheney CEO of Halliburton & Vice President of the USA.

A man who made fortunes out of the results of war & who was in a position to influence the taking part in war.

A man who applied for, & received, five draft deferments which kept him out of the Vietnam war because, in his words 'I had other priorities in the 60s than military service.'

 

Yeah, I bet he did, not getting killed being right at the top of them.

This man had no problem in requiring other men to put their lives at risk to enrich his bank balance & his place in history.

Guess what I think of Cheney?

 

Incidentally I started & ran my own business successfully for 16 years, I am not a socialist nor any other kind of ist for that matter. I admire people who build successful businesses & am pleased for them if it results in enriching them & their families.

 

As to having a go on the Lottery from time to time what's that got to do with anything? So do I occasionally, who's it harming?

 

I wont argue with youir opinion of Cheney.He was a disgrace to politics and America. His boss George Bush dodged the Vietnam draft by joinng the Texas Air National Guard. His dad Bush Senior was pals with the General Commanding that unit and got his son signed up.

Bush junior however did do a lot for helping in the fight against the spread of HIV in Africa

 

There wont be any glory for either of them in the annals of American history though

 

---------- Post added 18-05-2013 at 20:40 ----------

 

Schools would do well to teach how these little islands in the NW corner of Europe had so much influence on the modern world, in a few hundred years it may become so much more insignificant than it is seen now !

 

Why should it? The Roman Empire is still a fascinating subject for historians and compared to the British Empire much smaller in size and influence.

[mjw47]

Harleyman. The Roman Empire lasted for just short of 2000 years more than the British Empire.

It's influence was in fact greater.

[Hillpig]

I dont see how a policy of keeping the US isolated would have benefited Britain in any way unless the idea was to maintain Britain's status as one of the great powers.

 

In 1939 the Empire was already coming apart. How would Halfax have dealt with the likes of Nehru and Ghandi for instance? There was a rising nationalism not only in India but in Africa and the middle east as well. It was the beginning of a tide that was turning against all European colonial powers. In French Indo-China such nationalists as Ho Chi Minh were already working towards getting rid of the French even before Japan invaded and occupied Indo-China and although China was ruled by Chiang Kai Zek and some parts of the country under Japanese occupation Mao Tse Tung's Communist army was already a large force and gathering more and more strength by the month.

 

The rest of the world outside Europe and Russia was changing rapidly

 

As for the US it was completely self sufficient in oil, minerals, coal, food, raw materials, had a population of around 125 million, a huge reserve of manpower and the potential industrial capability to out produce any European nation in everything from consumer goods to military hardware

 

With a scenario of Britain now on peace terms with Nazi Germany if not it's ally even...... Canada, Australia and New Zealand would have very possibly withdrawn from the Commonwealth and gone their own way, Canada eventually uniting politically with the US

 

That's how I see it happening anyway

 

Youre futuristic speculation is just as valid as mine! I just do not see the US going to war unless a. It was attacked or b. It had an overwhelming reason to do so.

 

The US, at the time was overwhelmingly isolationaist and, for the reasons you state, its complete self reliance meant it just did not need to fight anyone.

 

It is true that the British Empire was in decline,but it was a slow decline and like the Romam empire in the 2nd century it could well have halted and indeed reversed that decline assuming certain circumstances prevailed.

 

You assume that by the time the peace between the british and the germans was agreed that the germans would have over run the west. The Germans would have had to establish air superiority which they signally failed to do and also command of he Channel which they never got close to acheiving.

 

But, as I said before, it never happened, we are where we are.

[Harleyman]

Harleyman. The Roman Empire lasted for just short of 2000 years more than the British Empire.

It's influence was in fact greater.

 

Oh I dont know about that buddy. Take the English language, spoken throughout the world as an official language or a second language and gaining evermore usage in China in the matter of business and commerce. As a matter of fact in decades to come one out of three Chinese will be able to speak it

Then there's English Common Law either used as an official law as in the US and Commonwealth countries or variations of it

Then there's the most popular and most beloved game in the world..... football.

These are a few of lasting legacies of the British Empire and what it passed on to much of the world, geographically immense compared to the size of the Roman Empire

[Hillpig]

Harleyman. The Roman Empire lasted for just short of 2000 years more than the British Empire.

It's influence was in fact greater.

 

I assume that you incorporate the Byzantine Empire into your figure of 2000 years? You are perfectly right to do so.

 

The British Empire was in many ways different. Although the Brits did many bad things, we were never as brutal as the Romans indeed you could say that we were more cynical, we sought profit rather than domination and the empire was expanded as much to keep the other european nations out as for any other reason.

 

I still think it an open question as to whether, on balance the empire was good or bad, it was good in parts. It was at the end of the day a huge confidence trick. We never had more than 40,000 troops in India for instance, for 200 years we convinced the world that we were some sort of superior beings. A reading of Orwells time in Burma illustrates this perfectly.

[Harleyman]

Youre futuristic speculation is just as valid as mine! I just do not see the US going to war unless a. It was attacked or b. It had an overwhelming reason to do so.

 

The US, at the time was overwhelmingly isolationaist and, for the reasons you state, its complete self reliance meant it just did not need to fight anyone.

 

It is true that the British Empire was in decline,but it was a slow decline and like the Romam empire in the 2nd century it could well have halted and indeed reversed that decline assuming certain circumstances prevailed.

 

You assume that by the time the peace between the british and the germans was agreed that the germans would have over run the west. The Germans would have had to establish air superiority which they signally failed to do and also command of he Channel which they never got close to acheiving.

 

But, as I said before, it never happened, we are where we are.

 

Before Pearl harbour there was ever increasing friction between US naval vessels and German U-boats in the Atlantic once the war in Europe started.

Convoys crossing to Britain where US warships were part of the escorts as far as Greenland were being attacked and the German submariners despite orders from Hitler werent too careful about where their torpedoes went. No US warships were hit but in one instance there was a skirmish betwwen a U-boat and a US destroyer.

 

At that time US war production of planes, artillery and tanks was beginning to get into high gear and the "Draft" was passed by Congress in 1940 which made all men between 18 and 34 eligible for call up for military service.

So despite all the isolationist rhetoric by some in Congress and among the populace people in high places knew that sooner than later the US must enter the European conflict... Pearl Harbour just made that eventuality occur sooner

Now if Halifax had signed a peace accord with Hitler after the invasion of Poland Hitler would more than likely not have declared war on America as he saw no threat of it as becoming any ally of Britain.

Germany and the US (if any kind of war had been declared in 1939) had no way of fighting such a war as both were out of range of each other's aircraft and the German navy wasnt a serious sea going force to contend with except nuisance raids by what was then a small U-boat forceThe Japanese may well have attacked Pearl Harbour anyway as relations over trade and the situation in China had reached a near state of war in 1941. Free of any obligation to Europe the US could have concentrated it's whole military effort on Japan and the Pacific war would have ended much quicker. The long range B-29 bomber and the atomic bomb would have also become part of the American arsenal.

 

The decline of the British Empire was not slow after 1945. A decade later Eurpean flags were being hauled down everywhere. The French tried to cling to what they had ruled for a couple of centuries in Indo-China and got a licking for their troubles and the same happened in Algeria and Morocco.. The US was destined to learn the hard way about Asian nationalism a few years later

 

Colonial people in every corner of the world had seen the humiliating defeat of the white man in the far east by the Japanes in 1941 and it proved to them that the white man was not so invincible after all