Here's one for the religious..

[Obelix]

Good job I've never used that argument then isn't it.

 

If you are talking about the god of the bible, then once youv'e dealt with all the inconsistencies inherent in there, let me know.

[Ryedo40]

I think that we agree to a large extent, but I don't see religion as some great evil as you seem to, it's a shame because it seems to cloud your usually rational clear thinking every time it raises its head.

 

Well, yes. I think we mostly agree. That said, and no matter how much I disagree with or dislike religion, I don't necessarily see religion as some great evil – although it may come across that way sometimes. Religions, in their more benign forms can be pretty much ignored IMO – that goes whether it's the Jedi Knights, Paganism, benign forms of Christianity – whatever floats your boat. I just think there is cause for concern when they overstep the benign mark.

 

You haven't quite understood what I've said- the anxiety I'm referring to here doesn't come from holding metamagical beliefs, the anxiety is the suffering that is part of the human condition which includes concerns such as the meaning of life, the search for gratification, the sense of curiosity, the inevitability of isolation, or awareness regarding the inescapability of death-

 

I was aware of the above, but I believe that all of what you've mentioned here – along with what I mentioned – all lead to the creation of conspiracy theory/religion.

 

With the invention of conspiracy theories, you've got risk management involved/paranoia, curiosity(a need to know), disempowerment(need to be in control of a situation – real or perceived through flawed pattern seeking(risk management/paranoia, pareidolia, etc), ignorance(not having complete and accurate information).

 

With religions – especially the older less reality based religions – you've got risk management involved/paranoia, curiosity(a need to know), disempowerment(need to be in control of a situation – real or perceived through flawed pattern seeking(risk management/paranoia, pareidolia, etc)), ignorance(not having complete and accurate information).

 

So what I'm saying is the mechanisms that lead to conspiracy theories also lead to religion – which IMO are just advanced and far more complex conspiracy theories. Those mechanisms, or genes as you like to call them, aren't specifically or purposely meant for creating conspiracy theories/religions, but conspiracy theories/religions are an inevitable consequence or by-product of those flawed – but useful – mechanisms.

 

The big human issues that affect everyone to some degree, not some temporary conspiracy theory that arises out of tyrannical politics.

 

Conspiracy theories certainly arise from a lack of control, particularly amongst disempowered young men,...

 

Yes, of course. But I think you misunderstand what I mean when I say conspiracy theory. By that term, I don't just mean a temporary(how long is a piece of string?) theory that arises from political threat or distrust of science, etc. I'm also saying conspiracy theories arise from environmental threats(disease/natural disasters and their unknown cause) – all of which invokes those feelings of disempowerment, the need to know and control(basically what's been mentioned above).

 

Some of us are more prone – atheist or theist – to believe conspiracy theories/religion etc, and lot of it has to do with risk management and how it can serve our survival, anxiety and the way our brains kick into overdrive to search for coherent – accurate or mistaken – answers.

 

but I don't think they stem from the same genetic trait and I'll explain why...

I'm not sure that I agree with with you here.

[janie48]

Good job I've never used that argument then isn't it.

 

If you are talking about the god of the bible, then once youv'e dealt with all the inconsistencies inherent in there, let me know.

I read inconsistencies in every history book, and often contradictions in the accounts from modern historians when relating details of any historical figure.

That doesn't mean i'm going to dismiss them all as false stories and refuse to believe they existed though.

[Obelix]

I read inconsistencies in every history book, and often contradictions in the accounts from modern historians when relating details of any historical figure.

That doesn't mean i'm going to dismiss them all as false stories and refuse to believe they existed though.

 

You mean if Alexander the Great claimed there was a global flood that wiped out all of his enemies you wouldn't be just a little suspicious that there was no other evidence for it at all?

 

I'm not talking about little holes in the biblical account I'm talkin about holes so large you could fit all of the Golden Horde through them and still find space to slip the massed armies of Xerxes and Sparta down the sides for padding....

[PaliRichard]

I really don't care about your issues with Tim, I do care that your badmouthing a project I'm involved in without even it seems, having any actual knowledge of it or who's involved in it.

 

We've set a date for the first talk and we'll release it when we're sure all of the preparations are in place. Tim will be doing the first introductory talk and I'll be giving a talk on palaeo-dating techniques such as radiocarbon, thermoluminescence and uranium-thorium dating and what they can tell us about human history. One of the main aims of the project that's been proposed so far has been to assist people that are struggling to cope with their loss of faith.

 

Thankyou for the update.

 

As I said, in light of no updates on the other thread I took it that nothing had moved forward.

 

In light of this I thought it would still be an idea Tim wanted to get off the ground and that it would be based on his ideas. You can hardly blame me for making such assumptions when a) we haven't been informed otherwise and b) given his attitude towards religion.

 

If you are offended by someone taking what knowledge they have had forming an opinion based on that knowledge I would agree, we should end our conversations.

 

I cannot respect your contribution in something I don't know you're involved in. Had Tim kept the other thread going instead of running away because he's made baseless comments he can't substantiate and his not willing to say 'Sorry, on that count I was wrong' and rather avoiding the issue altogether I would have more knowledge on the subject.

 

Regarding your

That really isn't how it works[/Quote] thank you for the expansion. I was basing my question on your saying

the trait simply gives them the ability to believe to a greater or lesser degree[/Quote]

 

which implied that people without the trait were devoid of the ability to believe. I appreciate your clarification.

[quisquose]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

Yes it is.

 

It's not proof of absence, but it is evidence of absence.

 

Furthermore, if we are talking about something which we are told can influence our lives, answer prayers, cause miracles to happen ... then absence of evidence is pretty good evidence of absence.

[SnailyBoy]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

How about "Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking" - Bill Maher

[Cavegirl]

Well, yes. I think we mostly agree. That said, and no matter how much I disagree with or dislike religion, I don't necessarily see religion as some great evil – although it may come across that way sometimes. Religions, in their more benign forms can be pretty much ignored IMO – that goes whether it's the Jedi Knights, Paganism, benign forms of Christianity – whatever floats your boat. I just think there is cause for concern when they overstep the benign mark.

 

So do I, hence why I've repeated my understanding that there has to be a high ratio of science/ practical minded people to religious leaders- upset that balance and you get into social difficulty. I don't think the balance is out in our current secular society, but it certainly was in the pre-Enlightenment era.

 

I was aware of the above, but I believe that all of what you've mentioned here – along with what I mentioned – all lead to the creation of conspiracy theory/religion.

 

With the invention of conspiracy theories, you've got risk management involved/paranoia, curiosity(a need to know), disempowerment(need to be in control of a situation – real or perceived through flawed pattern seeking(risk management/paranoia, pareidolia, etc), ignorance(not having complete and accurate information).

 

With religions – especially the older less reality based religions – you've got risk management involved/paranoia, curiosity(a need to know), disempowerment(need to be in control of a situation – real or perceived through flawed pattern seeking(risk management/paranoia, pareidolia, etc)), ignorance(not having complete and accurate information).

 

So what I'm saying is the mechanisms that lead to conspiracy theories also lead to religion – which IMO are just advanced and far more complex conspiracy theories. Those mechanisms, or genes as you like to call them, aren't specifically or purposely meant for creating conspiracy theories/religions, but conspiracy theories/religions are an inevitable consequence or by-product of those flawed – but useful – mechanisms.

 

Yes, of course. But I think you misunderstand what I mean when I say conspiracy theory. By that term, I don't just mean a temporary(how long is a piece of string?) theory that arises from political threat or distrust of science, etc. I'm also saying conspiracy theories arise from environmental threats(disease/natural disasters and their unknown cause) – all of which invokes those feelings of disempowerment, the need to know and control(basically what's been mentioned above).

 

Some of us are more prone – atheist or theist – to believe conspiracy theories/religion etc, and lot of it has to do with risk management and how it can serve our survival, anxiety and the way our brains kick into overdrive to search for coherent – accurate or mistaken – answers.

 

It's an interesting theory and I liked the logic in the 2nd and 3rd sections, but you need to find evidence to back up this theory- evidence that conspiracy theories have existed throughout recorded history and evidence that it comes from the same genetic mechanism as religion before we can really consider your theory.

 

I'm not sure that I agree with with you here.

 

There's plenty of literature online about it if you'd like to know more. Interestingly, it also seems to be linked to the arts- a number of authors and artists are believed to have suffered these TL epileptic fits resulting in strong visions/ hallucinations including-

 

...Vincent Van Gogh, Charles Dodgson (a.k.a. Lewis Carroll), Edgar Allan Poe, Fyodor Dostoevsky (whose novel The Idiot features a protagonist with epilepsy, Prince Myshkin), Gustave Flaubert, Philip K. Dick, Sylvia Plath and contemporary author Thom Jones. Peter O'Leary has also discussed this in relation to work of poet Philip Jenks in his "Gnostic Contagion: Robert Duncan and the Poetry of Illness". Sadi Ranson-Polizzotti has discussed the significance of Lewis Carroll's epilepsy online and in a forthcoming book on the subject.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_lobe_epilepsy#Temporal_Lobe_Epilepsy_and_the_Arts

 

The section beneath in the link discusses the religious/ paranormal link to temporal lobe epilepsy.

 

My post 184 suggested that there may be this link between religion and the arts and perhaps this is the root of it. Though I'm still in the early stages of really understanding it.

[janie48]

Yes it is.

 

It's not proof of absence, but it is evidence of absence.

 

Furthermore, if we are talking about something which we are told can influence our lives, answer prayers, cause miracles to happen ... then absence of evidence is pretty good evidence of absence.

Life is full of little miracles, when the blinkers are removed you can feel and experience them.

Even after the worst possible kind of disaster immense good can follow that would not have been thought possible.

 

How about "Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking" - Bill Maher

"Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase"- Martin Luther King.

[SnailyBoy]

Life is full of little miracles, when the blinkers are removed you can feel and experience them.

Even after the worst possible kind of disaster immense good can follow that would not have been thought possible.

 

"Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase"- Martin Luther King.

 

I still prefer to think and find out about the 'staircase'. Faith is the easy way out.