The game has changed.. is it dawning on people yet?

[I1L2T3]

Not at all. If I put money in a pension I avoid paying that tax that would be due as income. That's avoidance and is legal.

 

If I fail to declare it as income, thats evasion and is naughty.

 

No matter how much you try and dress it up, avoidance is normal, and is generally something that is to be encouraged, as there have been laws passed to encourage it for good reason. Sadly that means that there are loopholes that will always be exploited, but they will still be exploited legally.

 

There is virtuous avoidance of the type you describe. Measures deliberately put in place to encourage behaviour that is beneficial economically. ISAs, pension planning etc... No problems with that.

 

Then there is aggressive tax avoidance by corporations. George Osborne has been talking a lot about it lately. Whenever possible loopholes should be closed. We can't afford not to close them and make corporations pay their way.

[MrSmith]

I agree Mr Smith, the waste is horrendous.

 

But how can we change that?

 

Both governments are as bad as each other and we little people aren't ever listened to. We have been very badly governed for a very long time and yet we still have to vote for more of the same or not vote at all.

 

The ballot box is no threat to either side. Manifestoes are routinely ignored once they are in power, and corruption is rife.

 

Yep, we have a two party system with one party being worse than the other party depending on your prospective, all that available is to vote for the party that is most likely to keep the worst one out, or not vote at all. It can’t be fixed because any party with the will to fix it will be unelectable.

[I1L2T3]

Tax avoidance is the minimization of tax liability by lawful methods.

 

I avoid paying tax on savings by placing my money in an ISA; I avoid paying all the income tax that is due by paying into my pension. I avoid paying VAT by buying VAT exempt items.

 

This is absolutely not the same as aggressive corporate tax avoidance.

[Anna B]

Tax avoidance is the minimization of tax liability by lawful methods.

 

I avoid paying tax on savings by placing my money in an ISA; I avoid paying all the income tax that is due by paying into my pension. I avoid paying VAT by buying VAT exempt items.

 

This is not the same thing at all - as I tried to explain right at the beginning of this discussion. Why are you defending these corporate cheats?

 

We live in a digital age when companies exist in the ether, and money can be transferred from country to country with the push of a button. Corporations employ whole teams of tax lawyers to shift money, set up companies and charities, and employ a whole range of strategies to avoid tax. This is hardly the same as making use of an ISA...

[Obelix]

There is virtuous avoidance of the type you describe. Measures deliberately put in place to encourage behaviour that is beneficial economically. ISAs, pension planning etc... No problems with that.

 

Then there is aggressive tax avoidance by corporations. George Osborne has been talking a lot about it lately. Whenever possible loopholes should be closed. We can't afford not to close them and make corporations pay their way.

 

Be careful of what else is closed on the way though - those laws were there for a reason....

 

---------- Post added 26-05-2013 at 22:36 ----------

 

This is absolutely not the same as aggressive corporate tax avoidance.

 

No, it's aggressive personal tax avoidance...:-)

[ECCOnoob]

This is not the same thing at all - as I tried to explain right at the beginning of this discussion. Why are you defending these corporate cheats?

 

We live in a digital age when companies exist in the ether, and money can be transferred from country to country with the push of a button. Corporations employ whole teams of tax lawyers to shift money, set up companies and charities, and employ a whole range of strategies to avoid tax. This is hardly the same as making use of an ISA...

 

 

...avoid tax legally. Just like avoiding high staffing costs. Just like avoiding a big supplier bill. Just like trying to avoid high overheads.

 

Everyone does it.

 

Nobody is defending anyone here. How can you not see IT IS THE SAME thing.

 

Just because one person trys to avoid tax by using a £5k ISA and a company tries to avoid tax using a £5m offshore trust fund. Its still the same principle.

 

It does not matter if its Joe Bloggs, a corner shop, local company or multi national. Everyone wants to cut overheads and pay as little as possible.

 

Is it legal? YES

 

Is it moral? NO

 

However, I have said many times before. Companies are not set up to be moral. They are set up to make money.

 

The tax laws need to be changed. The only people who can do that is the government. Once they do, companies will have to pay the 'proper' amounts. That's where peope should be directing their anger.

 

Until this happens. Nobody, no company, no corporation will pay any more than they legallly have to.

[MrSmith]

This is not the same thing at all - as I tried to explain right at the beginning of this discussion. Why are you defending these corporate cheats?

 

We live in a digital age when companies exist in the ether, and money can be transferred from country to country with the push of a button. Corporations employ whole teams of tax lawyers to shift money, set up companies and charities, and employ a whole range of strategies to avoid tax. This is hardly the same as making use of an ISA...

 

I haven't defended them; I have just pointed out that they just use the system that is available to legally lower their tax liability, which is something their shareholders will expect them to do. If you don't like it then don't use the company or vote for a political party that will change the system.

[I1L2T3]

...avoid tax legally. Just like avoiding high staffing costs. Just like avoiding a big supplier bill, high overheards.

 

Everyone does it.

 

Nobody is defending anyone here. How can you not see IT IS THE SAME thing.

 

Just because one person trys to avoid tax by using a £5k ISA and a company tries to avoid tax using a £5m offshore trust fund.

Its still the same principle.

 

It does not matter if its Joe Bloggs, a corner shop, local company or multi national. Everyone wants to cut overheads and pay as little as possible.

 

Is it legal? YES

 

Is it moral? NO

 

However, I have said many times before. Companies are not set up to be moral. They are set up to make money.

 

The tax laws need to be changed. The only people who can do that is the government. Once they do, companies will have to pay the 'proper' amounts. That's where peope should be directing their anger.

 

Until this happens. Nobody, no company, no corporation will pay any more than they legallly have to.

 

No it's not the same.

 

One is the use of the tax system to encourage economically beneficially behaviour.

 

The other is the abuse of the tax system resulting in economic damage.

 

The only thing that links the two is the issue of legality. One is legal, deliberately so. The other in many cases should be illegal.

[ECCOnoob]

No it's not the same.

 

One is the use of the tax system to encourage economically beneficially behaviour.

 

The other is the abuse of the tax system resulting in economic damage.

 

The only thing that links the two is the issue of legality. One is legal, deliberately so. The other in many cases should be illegal.

 

There you go then. 2 perfectly legal ways to avoid tax.

 

What it does or does not do for the country is another matter. That is why the onus is still on the Government. If they consider that legal tax avoidance they allow is damaging the economy they need to pull their finger out and get on with changing things.

[MrSmith]

No it's not the same.

 

One is the use of the tax system to encourage economically beneficially behaviour.

 

The other is the abuse of the tax system resulting in economic damage.

 

The only thing that links the two is the issue of legality. One is legal, deliberately so. The other in many cases should be illegal.

 

How is it economically beneficial to encourage people to save and pay less tax?

 

Encouraging them to spend and pay more tax would make much more economic sense if you are looking for economic growth.