Banning Lads Magazines

[truman]

Not at all, but the balance in society is still set pretty firmly in favour of men.

 

Surely if you believe that sexism is wrong then it must be wrong whether it be female oriented or male oriented?

[Chris_Sleeps]

Are you really sure about that?

Certainly. Am I incorrect?

[Halibut]

Surely if you believe that sexism is wrong then it must be wrong whether it be female oriented or male oriented?

 

Absolutely. But it's far more prevalent in one direction, therefore that needs tackling most urgently.

[Suffragette1]

I agree that the advert is awful but it illustrates a point. The same advert with the same content/script/set but with the genders reversed would never make to air because it would be seen as sexist and therefore an inequality exists because this version is allowed. Essentially it's showing that it's ok to be sexist if you're a woman.

 

The point is why is morally different? It's the same act with the only difference being the gender roles being reversed, as with the main argument of the thread, why should 'lad's mags' be subjected to a ban whilst the female equivalent not

 

That aside morals are subjective so why should one minority group with extreme moral views be allowed to force the rest to comply with those views.

 

It's a pathetic advert, clearly a reference to the Full Monty but it also illustrates a huge difference between the male and female gaze. Do men frequent lap dancing bars and sit giggling as a woman performs for them? Why do men go these venues and why do women go to the male performances?

 

The same advert reversed would have a completely different meaning.

[Chris_Sleeps]

In a bizarre twist, and to add some fun - I've met one woman who collected 'erotic' images on her computer in a way that's comparable to men, and she was a lesbian. Her computer at work too, I can't comment on her personal habits.

 

Nothing hardcore; the usual pretty Hollywood starlets type girls. Nothing to get her in trouble. I just found it notable at the time. It's the first time I've seen that behaviour in a woman.

[Suffragette1]

Which nicely illustrates the problem. We need to educate our young men about respect for women.

 

There's been a lot of talk about Muslim attitudes to women - fair do's, there are issues that need addressing, but attitudes to women and sex in the majority white/Christian community need looking at too.

 

---------- Post added 28-05-2013 at 15:51 ----------

 

 

Not at all, but the balance in society is still set pretty firmly in favour of men.

 

Well said. I despair when I see some taking the moral high ground in this regard, as if our culture is a paragon of virtue, when it is far from it. We have structural misogyny and sexism too, legislation has made it more insidious but it is so normalised that many don't even bother to question it. And if you do, you're branded as fundamentalist, minger, jealous etc. Men who are allies (although I would argue that men can be feminists although some feminists disagree with me on this) are derided by the alpha male contingent.

 

---------- Post added 28-05-2013 at 16:46 ----------

 

Here is the Lose the Lads' Mags site.

 

 

Top lawyers tell high-street shops to ‘lose the lads’ mags’

 

Supermarkets and newsagents open to legal action from staff and customers

 

A group of Britain’s top lawyers have joined forces with UK Feminista and Object (1) to warn supermarkets and newsagents to ‘lose the lads’ mags’ – or risk possible legal action. In an open letter (2) set to have dramatic implications for retailers and the lads’ mags industry as a whole, lawyers reveal that shops selling and displaying lads’ mags and papers with Page 3-style front cover images are vulnerable to legal action from both staff and customers. The revelation comes as UK Feminista and Object announce a national campaign targeting major retailers over their continued sale of lads’ mags (3).

 

New legal advice obtained by campaigners (4) reveals that displaying and selling lads’ mags and papers with Page 3-style front cover images can constitute sexual harassment or sex discrimination under the Equality Act 2010. Employees could take action on this basis and, where the magazine is visibly on display, customers could also have a claim.

 

The scale of legal exposure for British retailers is extensive. Lads Mags are sold in all major high-street supermarkets. The ‘big four’ supermarkets – Tesco, Sainsbury’s, Asda and Morrisons – together operate over 5000 UK stores and employ approximately 782,000 people in the UK (5). WH Smith, another major lads mag retailer, operates over 1200 stores which are visited by over 73% of the UK population every year (6).

 

There is legal precedence of women working in other industries successfully suing their employers after being exposed to pornography at work. UK Feminista and Object have obtained reports from women working in retail that they object to stocking, handling, looking at and selling lads’ mags and newspapers with pornographic images on the front page:

 

A female employee in a south London branch of one of the ‘big four’ supermarkets said:

“It’s ridiculous that they sell these magazines… these magazines definitely affect how men treat women and say disturbing things on how to satisfy women and pressures on the men.”

 

A woman working in a north London supermarket said:

“I’d prefer them not to be sold where I work. It displays the wrong image towards customers.”

 

A woman, 45, shopping in a south London branch of Tesco said:

“Tesco make enough money- they don’t need to sell this stuff. Magazines like this should not be in a supermarket and Tesco should know better than to sell them.”

 

Kat Banyard, Director of UK Feminista, said:

 

“Lads mags’ aren’t just a bit of harmless fun. By portraying women as sex objects they fuel sexist attitudes and behaviours. It is a national scandal that the ‘big four’ supermarkets and high-street shops like WH Smiths stock these sexist publications. By selling lads’ mags, companies like Tesco and WH Smith are normalising the idea that it is acceptable to treat women like sex objects. The good news is that customers and employees don’t have to put up with it any more. Legally as well as ethically, lads’ mags are well past their sell by date. The writing’s on the wall for retailers: lose the lads’ mags or you could end up in court.”

 

Sophie Bennett, Campaigns Officer for Object, said:

 

“Lads’ mags dehumanise and objectify women, promoting harmful attitudes that underpin discrimination and violence against women and girls. Reducing women to sex objects sends out an incredibly dangerous message that women are constantly sexually available and displaying these publications in everyday spaces normalises this sexism. It is unacceptable that major retailers continue to expose staff and customers to such sexist and degrading material. It’s time we saw an end to Lads’ mags in shops and the very real harms to women that result!”

 

Anna Mazzola, an associate at Bindmans LLP, said:

 

“The problem with this material is that people cannot avoid being confronted with it, whether they are customers who rely on the shops where it is sold, children accompanying them, or the employees obliged to sell it. The companies that own those shops should be aware that their legal position is precarious – making employees handle and sell these magazines will, in some circumstances, amount to unlawful sexual discrimination or harassment.”

 

For more information and to request interviews please contact Kat Banyard (UK Feminista) on 07775 855037 / kat@ukfeminista.org.uk or Sophie Bennett (Object) on 07450 429814 / campaigns@object.org.uk

 

ENDS

 

Notes to editors

 

UK Feminista supports women and men to take action for gender equality. Formed in 2010, the organisation has rapidly become one of the UK’s leading feminist organisations and a powerful mobilising force. http://www.ukfeminista.org.uk

Object is an award-winning human rights organisation that campaigns against the sexual objectification of women and girls in the media and popular culture. http://www.object.org.uk

 

2. The full letter text is published in the Guardian on 27/5/13. It is signed by Aileen McColgan, Matrix Chambers; Sarah Ricca, Deighton Pierce Glynn Solicitors; Mike Schwarz, Bindmans; Harriet Wistrich, Birnberg Peirce & Partners; Anna Mazzola, Bindmans; Helen Mountfield, Matrix Chambers; Elizabeth Prochaska, Matrix Chambers; Tamsin Allen, Bindmans; Gwendolen Morgan, Bindmans; Salima Budhani, Bindmans; Nathalie Lieven QC, Landmark Chambers; Samantha Mangwana, Slater & Gordon (UK) LLP; Julie Morris, Slater & Gordon (UK) LLP; and Emma Hawksworth, Slater & Gordon (UK) LLP.

 

3. The ‘Lose the Lads’ Mags’ campaign, launched today, calls on retailers to stop selling lads’ mags and papers with Page 3-style front cover images. The campaign will see activists targeting major retailers of lads’ mags over the coming months. The campaign is set to announce its first target within the next week. http://www.losetheladsmags.org.uk, #losetheladsmags

 

The biggest selling lads mags include:

 

Nuts: first published in 2004, circulation figure for second half of 2012 – 80186 http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/mag-abcs-digital-success-balances-print-decline-mens-health-and-t3

Zoo: first published in 2004, circulation figure for second half of 2012 – 44068

FHM: first published in 1985 as ‘For Him’, circulation figure for second half of 2012 – 114677

Loaded: first published in 1994, circulation figure for second half of 2011 – 34,505 http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/feb/16/knocked-out-loaded-mag-sales-drop

4. Legal advice provided to UK Feminista and Object by Aileen McColgan, a barrister at Matrix Chambers, states:

 

“The display of pornography and “lads mags” is capable of amounting to sexual harassment as defined by the Equality Act 2010: “unwanted conduct … of a sexual nature” that has … the “effect [even if not the purpose] of violating [a worker’s] dignity, or of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for her [or him]”….. Requiring employees to work with pornographic material may amount to indirect discrimination connected with sex, and/or with religion or belief (including a belief in gender equality).”

 

“…unwanted exposure to pornographic material, whether in the capacity of worker or customer, is capable of giving rise to a legal claim under the Equality Act. This is because workers and those who access goods and services (including by visiting a shop) are protected under the Equality Act in respect not only from sex discrimination but also from sexual harassment which consists of “unwanted conduct” which is either “related to sex” or which is “of a sexual nature”, which conduct…”has the purpose or effect of violating [the complainant's] dignity, or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for [the complainant]“. The provision of the Act which applies in respect of customers is s29 which provides: “(3) A service-provider must not, in relation to the provision of the service, harass… (b) a person to whom the service-provider provides the service”.”

 

A summary of the legal advice relating to the sale and display of lads mags, provided by Aileen McColgan – Matrix Chambers, is available on request: kat@ukfeminista.org.uk

 

5. Number of employees and UK stores operated by the ‘big four’ supermarkets:

 

Tesco: 3146 stores, over 300,000 employees (http://www.tescoplc.com/index.asp?pageid=8&panel=1#panel1)

Asda: over 400 stores, nearly 200,000 employees (http://www.asda.jobs/stores/about-our-stores/)

Sainsbury’s: over 1000 stores, 150,000 employees (http://www.j-sainsbury.co.uk/about-us/)

Morrisons: over 500 stores (http://www.morrisons-corporate.com/About-us/Our-Stores/), 132,000 employees (http://www.morrisons-corporate.com/About-us/Company-history/)

6. http://www.whsmithplc.co.uk/about_whsmith/key-facts/

 

---------- Post added 28-05-2013 at 16:50 ----------

 

The campaign's aim is not to ban lads' mags per se but to get them off the shelves of the supermarkets and WH Smiths, so mods, could the thread title be changed which is very misleading. Thanks.

[MrSmith]

Well said. I despair when I see some taking the moral high ground in this regard, as if our culture is a paragon of virtue, when it is far from it. We have structural misogyny and sexism too, legislation has made it more insidious but it is so normalised that many don't even bother to question it. And if you do, you're branded as fundamentalist, minger, jealous etc. Men who are allies (although I would argue that men can be feminists although some feminists disagree with me on this) are derided by the alpha male contingent.

 

---------- Post added 28-05-2013 at 16:46 ----------

 

Here is the Lose the Lads' Mags site.

 

Where?

 

Which men have an hatred or dislike of women?

 

 

No idea how it can be described as sex discrimination when there are mags with pictures of David Beckham for women to drool over.

[Suffragette1]

Where?

 

Which men have an hatred or dislike of women?

 

Er, the ones who rape, abuse and murder them. You know, those crimes that the police and general public take so seriously; rapists and domestic abusers getting away with their crimes or serving derisory sentences to leave prison and reoffend.

 

Just seen your edit re Beckham, this has been addressed plenty of times. But carry on trying to prove your point.

[Halibut]

Where?

 

Which men have an hatred or dislike of women?

 

Wise up. Try all the rapists for starters and then maybe mosey along to all the puerile and witless ('mingers', anyone?) misogyny thats all around you on here.

 

If I had a fiver for every time Suffragette or Jessica 23 have been called 'man-haters' by the Gene Hunt appreciation society on here, I could retire tomorrow.

[L00b]

It undermines your own point in a way, in that male strippers still aren't objectivised in the same way.

 

It's also different in that women buy a theatrical performance from men on a stage, and not a 1-on-1 performance in private that one finds in lapdancing.

You need to get out more

 

Seriously...it's not talked about/used as a social convention (all wrong that it may be) as much, but from (admittedly small) experience, male strippers appear to be just as objectivised by their female audience these days, and I daresay (from the few performances I have seen on occasions whilst out and about) females in group appear to behave often worse than lads relative to a performing stripper.

 

And I've not mentioned certain, erm, websites (shown to me by acquaintances during a night out not too long ago) with details of, erm, 'performances' by strippers to consenting (baying, actually) females of an audience that are, erm, entirely unsuitable for any kind of forum never mind a family one like SF

 

I'm all for emancipation and mutual respect and all that malarkey (truly, I am), and keeping my broad brush firmly holstered here, but many females may not be the quasi-paragons you paint them out to be in the above, so let's not have too much double standards