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[Suffragette1]

You really are extraordinarily foolish in persisting with this nonsense.

 

---------- Post added 29-05-2013 at 07:09 ----------

 

 

Seeking to minimise any harm done to women, casting doubts on their reliability - where have I seen all this before?

 

I wonder if you're one of those charming people who says that rape victims 'asked for it', or perhaps conclude (without reason of course, bar your own blatant misogyny) that they're just making things up?

 

Quite. And then people question why so few women report abuse, harassment and rape.

 

As for Quagmire's comments, beneath contempt really. Why what feminists look like has any bearing on things is absurd. But hey, let's undermine women in any way that we can: ugly, liars, fantasists, teases . . . take your pick.

[L00b]

But I think my point stands; male strippers aren't exactly the same. There is a different morality behind it.

 

If 'The Full Monty' was about women who couldn't find work so turned to stripping, then it wouldn't be a success - and the older ugly ones wouldn't even be onstage.

My post was based on real-life experiences, not a movie fantasy, the Full Monty is an eminently bad example to make your point:

 

(i) have you ever seen or heard of "older ugly male strippers"?

 

(ii) if photos are anything to go by (as I honestly don't recall any of it), the stripper commissioned for my stag do did not exactly accord to ELLE or VOGUE standards. As feminism goes, though, I was definitely the abused party - she got paid a princely sum and I had whip marks for days

 

Oh, a timely link in relation to female objectification of male strippers - here goes.

[Chris_Sleeps]

(i) have you ever seen or heard of "older ugly male strippers"?

I've never seen any male strippers.

 

My honest answer though, no. I recognise your point.

(ii) if photos are anything to go by (as I honestly don't recall any of it), the stripper commissioned for my stag do did not exactly accord to ELLE or VOGUE standards

It's market forces.

 

I'm also aware that some women can behave inappropriately towards men. I'm not disputing it. I've written about it before that when I worked in a pub, I was collecting glasses and a woman put her hands up my top. I didn't want her to, and she didn't even talk to me. It wasn't the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my life, but it's something I recall.

 

Still, still, I don't think my point fails. Society views male strippers and female strippers differently. Women looking at naked men is viewed as fun, jovial. A laugh. Men viewing naked women is seen as sexual, lusty, and reaches into being called perverse and the judgement of 'dirty old men'.

[Suffragette1]

I've never seen any male strippers.

 

My honest answer though, no. I recognise your point.

 

It's market forces.

 

I'm also aware that some women can behave inappropriately towards men. I'm not disputing it. I've written about it before that when I worked in a pub, I was collecting glasses and a woman put her hands up my top. I didn't want her to, and she didn't even talk to me. It wasn't the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my life, but it's something I recall.

 

Still, still, I don't think my point fails. Society views male strippers and female strippers differently. Women looking at naked men is viewed as fun, jovial. A laugh. Men viewing naked women is seen as sexual, lusty, and reaches into being called perverse and the judgement of 'dirty old men'.

 

The strippers themselves are also viewed very differently and there is far less social stigma attached to being a male stripper. I also think that men viewing women performers, as you say, are generally considered as voyeurs whereas women going to a show is somehow seen as benign, a bit of a laugh, slightly risque and almost always done in groups (unlike men) and so on as the dynamic of the male on female gaze is far more entrenched culturally and historically.

 

I have to say I cannot see the appeal of male strippers at all.

[truman]

Certainly. Am I incorrect?

 

Yes I think so...but I see Loob has already covered this..

[carosio]

The strippers themselves are also viewed very differently and there is far less social stigma attached to being a male stripper. I also think that men viewing women performers, as you say, are generally considered as voyeurs whereas women going to a show is somehow seen as benign, a bit of a laugh, slightly risque and almost always done in groups (unlike men) and so on as the dynamic of the male on female gaze is far more entrenched culturally and historically.

 

Perhaps there is a social stigma on women being seen as voyeuristic but this accusation can be circumvented or at least ameliorated by being part a group, "getting lost in the audience", so to speak. Many women, who would normally be quite shy, gain a marked increase in confidence when part of a group.

 

That said, why shouldn't women be voyeuristic?

[MrQuagmire]

Quite. And then people question why so few women report abuse, harassment and rape.

 

As for Quagmire's comments, beneath contempt really. Why what feminists look like has any bearing on things is absurd. But hey, let's undermine women in any way that we can: ugly, liars, fantasists, teases . . . take your pick.

 

I don't think, I have ever said anything of the sort, well, not in the way you infer.

 

My point is more that women are the same as men in many respects. They judge men on their looks, are sexist towards them, enjoy the attention they get due to being attractive...

 

Women are also quite capable of displaying some of the more unattractive human characteristics. Women can lie about being raped, about being discriminated against, they can lie to other women, they can go out purposly to use a man for sex, they can steal other women's partners, they can go to deprived countries as a sex tourist to use deprived men for sex.

 

Firstly, we are human, we're the same, then there are different sections, but we're just the same.

 

I'm the one saying we are all the same, equaly good and bad, you seem to think we are different.

 

Men, throughout history, have held the upper hand though, due to the fact that they were stronger. As we're getting more and more equal, due to legislation and culture, women are not raising the bar for men's behaviour, they are sinking down to all the worst aspects..

[Suffragette1]

Perhaps there is a social stigma on women being seen as voyeuristic but this accusation can be circumvented or at least ameliorated by being part a group, "getting lost in the audience", so to speak. Many women, who would normally be quite shy, gain a marked increase in confidence when part of a group.

 

That said, why shouldn't women be voyeuristic?

 

Yes, very true. There is no reason why women shouldn't be voyeuristic in this context, how many are I wonder or if they are would admit to it?

 

---------- Post added 29-05-2013 at 11:44 ----------

 

I don't think, I have ever said anything of the sort, well, not in the way you infer.

 

My point is more that women are the same as men in many respects. They judge men on their looks, are sexist towards them, enjoy the attention they get due to being attractive...

 

Women are also quite capable of displaying some of the more unattractive human characteristics. Women can lie about being raped, about being discriminated against, they can lie to other women, they can go out purposly to use a man for sex, they can steal other women's partners, they can go to deprived countries as a sex tourist to use deprived men for sex.

 

Firstly, we are human, we're the same, then there are different sections, but we're just the same.

 

I'm the one saying we are all the same, equaly good and bad, you seem to think we are different.

 

Men, throughout history, have held the upper hand though, due to the fact that they were stronger. As we're getting more and more equal, due to legislation and culture, women are not raising the bar for men's behaviour, they are sinking down to all the worst aspects..

 

Those unattractive charactersitics all involve consent, although you refer to women who 'steal' other women's partners? Does the man in question have no say in this? He is 'stolen' against his will? What about men who actively pursue married women? Or is that different?

 

Of course we are different as we're raised differently, socialised differently, different rules apply to men and women.

[MrQuagmire]

Yes, very true. There is no reason why women shouldn't be voyeuristic in this context, how many are I wonder or if they are would admit to it?

 

---------- Post added 29-05-2013 at 11:44 ----------

 

 

Those unattractive charactersitics all involve consent, although you refer to women who 'steal' other women's partners? Does the man in question have no say in this? He is 'stolen' against his will? What about men who actively pursue married women? Or is that different?

 

Of course we are different as we're raised differently, socialised differently, different rules apply to men and women.

 

Yes we have our minor differences... but if you focus on the behaviour of men and women you will see that we're not all that different.

 

I hope you don't mind me being frank, but I feel that women are striving to be like men, warts and all, rather than raising the bar.

[Watson B]

Do you? Ok then!

 

Let's add attempting to discredit, minimise, trivialise or otherwise cast doubt on women's accounts of harassment or abuse to the misognyist trope bingo card that this thread is doing such sterling work on.

Add what ever you like.

Im mealy giving an opinion.

You can either accept that or kick off like a five year old.

 

---------- Post added 29-05-2013 at 12:08 ----------

 

I somehow doubt she is - it happens often enough sadly for it to be more than feasible.

 

It was the timing that i found suspect.

For such a long thread about this subject, she chooses then to drop that one in?

No, i think she was fibbing a little bit there.