Will the EDL ever become a political party?

[flamingjimmy]

Personally, I don't really care about all this in his past. He had a few fights and got the wrong side of the law.

 

It's not in the past though, because he's still lying about it.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 17:20 ----------

 

All these people who are arguing there is no such thing as English/British culture because we've been influenced by others.

 

Would you say the same about the US? They're even newer and have even more different things from different parts of the world than us in their culture.

[melthebell]

It's not in the past though, because he's still lying about it.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 17:20 ----------

 

All these people who are arguing there is no such thing as English/British culture because we've been influenced by others.

 

Would you say the same about the US? They're even newer and have even more different things from different parts of the world than us in their culture.

id say yes they dont, no country really has a culture that should be able to define us as standing out in the debate about immigration etc

its not something i use to be "anti british" as i get called, i mean it, worldwide

Edited July 12, 2013 by melthebell

[flamingjimmy]

without foriegners we wouldnt have a dish of fish and chips we could call british

 

to me the whole britishness debate is blinkered, simplised and only seen in black and white

it should be viewed a lot deeper

You're the one who's veiwing it in black and white, by discounting anything that has a foreign origin.

 

So friggin what if battered fish and the word potato may have originated elsewhere? Only a complete and utter moron would try and argue that fish and chips isn't part of British culture.

 

its to me why english nationalism fails at the first hurdle, we ARE all the same and come from the same place underneeth the crap

You may or may not know that I despise nationalism, think it is the worst and most destructive ideology humans have ever come up with. I don't even like patriotism, and have even taken to sometimes pretentiously calling myself a 'citizen of the world', there's your qualifier:

 

But the people who argue vociferously against anyone who mentions British /English culture at all and call them out on it thinking they've nailed them are being foolish.

 

Not only is what you're saying silly, it's not convincing. You can't even convince me, a man who wouldn't be caught dead waving a national flag, so how on earth do you expect to convince actual nationalists?

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 17:27 ----------

 

id say yes [The united states of America] dont [have a culture of their own], no country really has a culture

 

Wow, ladies and gentlemen, there you have it, I give you mel the bel.

 

So who does have a culture?

 

Why does the word even exist?

Edited July 12, 2013 by flamingjimmy

[melthebell]

You're the one who's veiwing it in black and white, by discounting anything that has a foreign origin.

 

So friggin what if battered fish and the word potato may have originated elsewhere? Only a complete and utter moron would try and argue that fish and chips isn't part of British culture.

 

You may or may not know that I despise nationalism, think it is the worst and most destructive ideology humans have ever come up with. I don't even like patriotism, and have even taken to sometimes pretentiously calling myself a 'citizen of the world', there's your qualifier:

 

But the people who argue vociferously against anyone who mentions British /English culture at all and call them out on it thinking they've nailed them are being foolish.

 

Not only is what you're saying silly, it's not convincing. You can't even convince me, a man who wouldn't be caught dead waving a national flag, so how on earth do you expect to convince actual nationalists?

i havent denied anything, im asking people who use the terms british culture / britishness who use it as some form as a battering ram to answer a simple question, define britishness, whats british and why?

 

to just blindly say thats british and thats that is ignoring history wouldnt you say?

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 17:34 ----------

 

 

Wow, ladies and gentlemen, there you have it, I give you mel the bel.

so youll rip the **** out of everything i say but you havent given YOUR answer on things

 

MOST countries have had centuries of invasion / immigration / discovery

 

as i said what do YOU define as being from that countries culture?

 

when does the earlier influences stop and something else start?

where does the original countries culture stop and newer influences start?

 

im trying to be honest and look at it in depth rather than you who just sees beef from me even tho youre "on the fence"

 

so, we have fish and chips....which are seen as british even they they wernt originated from here?

whos to say if sharia law was developed here properly would sharia law be seen as british culture / law here in a few centuries?

 

its not as simple as it looks

[SevenRivers]

im saying almost all what gets wheeled out as british culture comes from other countries abroad

but those that use british culture as a weapon to use against immigration etc constantly refuse to name these symbols of britain, could it be that they indeed hark back to previous bouts of immigration / invasion and so cannot be proof of pure "briton"?

like i said im confused to how people use it as a benchmark, where do outside forces stop / start in the quest for whats british? how long does something have to be an influence here before its taken as something british?

how many britons does it take to "like" something before its seen as british?

 

this isnt me arguing the toss, im really interested in the psyche of what people take as british, im interested in the history of these isles and how were assimilated other cultures whether through choice (ie:- the empire) or not (ie:- invasion and immigration)

take fish and chips, generally regarded as a wholly british dish

 

 

 

same as ive always had the wonderment as to the big thing about st george (who we all know is a political tool these days in the battle against islam and immigration) and isnt english nor even a saint to just us

 

take our chips, come from potatos

 

 

 

 

 

without foriegners we wouldnt have a dish of fish and chips we could call british

 

to me the whole britishness debate is blinkered, simplised and only seen in black and white

it should be viewed a lot deeper

 

its to me why english nationalism fails at the first hurdle, we ARE all the same and come from the same place underneeth the crap

 

Why does it bother you that we have adapted foreign influences? Personally, I don't mind if fried fish started off in Portugal, or that potatoes were first cultivated in South America.

 

But does that mean fish and chips are not an ingrained part of English culture? I don't think so. Does it mean we're the same as Portugal and Peru? Again I don't think so. We've made it our own.

 

You seem to think others are using what they deem to be our culture as something as an argument against immigration. That may be true, I don't know. You on the other hand, seem to think that just because we have accepted and embraced foreign influence for centuries, therefore nobody should question our immigration policy and its impact on our society, clearly a ridiculous position to take.

Edited July 12, 2013 by SevenRivers

[flamingjimmy]

i havent denied anything, im asking people who use the terms british culture / britishness who use it as some form as a battering ram to answer a simple question, define britishness, whats british and why?

And that's also an absurd position to take.

 

That no-one is entitled to say anything about British culture unless they first tie it down to a specific and precise definition, when it is intrinsically nebulous concept.

 

That's stupid, and completely unreasonable, you are simply trying to stifle discussion by trying to set an impossible standard.

 

Of course someoneone doesn't have to write an essay on 'what british culture is' and precisely nail it down to your satisfaction in order to make understandable and meaningful comments about things they perceive to be a loss for british culture.

 

to just blindly say thats british and thats that is ignoring history wouldnt you say?

Not at all, I'd say you're the one that's ignoring history by denying things like fish and chips as British, which history has quite clearly established as a part of British culture.

 

And I don't mean to pick on you mel, I know your heart's in the right place, but you do make a very easy target sometimes. I'm pretty sure I agree with most of your core principles, I just think you go about applying them all wrong sometimes.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 17:45 ----------

 

so youll rip the **** out of everything i say but you havent given YOUR answer on things

You do make it so very easy though when you make such obviously false claims like 'no country really has a culture'. I really don't need to put much forward to argue against that.

 

MOST countries have had centuries of invasion / immigration / discovery

 

as i said what do YOU define as being from that countries culture?

No you didn't ask me anything of the sort. Which country are you talking about?

 

when does the earlier influences stop and something else start?

where does the original countries culture stop and newer influences start?

Clearly, there's a very blurry line, but to argue that the lack of a clear line means that no-one has a culture is stupid.

 

EDIT: I just came up with a pretty decent analogy with colour: The fact that it's hard to say whether turquoise is a shade of blue or a shade of green does not mean that blue and green don't exist.

 

im trying to be honest and look at it in depth rather than you who just sees beef from me even tho youre "on the fence"

who are you quoting there?

 

And stop saying things like 'I'm looking at it in depth unlike you' that's meaningless rhetoric, in what way is my analysis of this shallow? And in what way is yours deep?

 

so, we have fish and chips....which are seen as british even they they wernt originated from here?

whos to say if sharia law was developed here properly would sharia law be seen as british culture / law here in a few centuries?

Not me, it absolutely could. It certainly isn't right now, and I would fight to prevent it from becoming so.

Edited July 12, 2013 by flamingjimmy

[melthebell]

Why does it bother you that we have adapted foreign influences? Personally, I don't mind if fried fish started off in Portugal, or that potatoes were first cultivated in South America.

 

But does that mean fish and chips are not an ingrained part of English culture? I don't think so. Does it mean we're the same as Portugal and Peru? Again I don't think so. We've made it our own.

 

You seem to think others are using what they deem to be our culture as something as an argument against immigration. That may be true, I don't know. You on the other hand, seem to think that just because we have accepted and embraced foreign influence for centuries, therefore nobody should question our immigration policy and its impact on our society, clearly a ridiculous position to take.

 

it doesnt bother me in the slightest that we speak, eat or whatever foriegn, why do you think i do??

quite the opposite, im happy who i am, where i come from and whatever outside influences the country picks up on the way through history

 

what DOES get to me tho is the way some folk, of the hard of thinking variety use it as a weapon, like i said, against foriegn influences, against immigration, against muslims....and that is silly

the EDL use the british culture thing, completely ignoring our centuries of foriegn influences on how we live our lives

the stupidity is breath taking

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 17:52 ----------

 

And that's also an absurd position to take.

 

That no-one is entitled to say anything about British culture unless they first tie it down to a specific and precise definition, when it is intrinsically nebulous concept.

 

That's stupid, and completely unreasonable, you are simply trying to stifle discussion by trying to set an impossible standard.

 

Of course someoneone doesn't have to write an essay on 'what british culture is' and precisely nail it down to your satisfaction in order to make understandable and meaningful comments about things they perceive to be a loss for british culture.

 

Not at all, I'd say you're the one that's ignoring history by denying things like fish and chips as British, which history has quite clearly established as a part of British culture.

 

And I don't mean to pick on you mel, I know your heart's in the right place, but you do make a very easy target sometimes. I'm pretty sure I agree with most of your core principles, I just think you go about applying them all wrong sometimes.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 17:45 ----------

 

You do make it so very easy though when you make such obviously false claims like 'no country really has a culture'. I really don't need to put much forward to argue against that.

 

No you didn't ask me anything of the sort. Which country are you talking about?

 

Clearly, there's a very blurry line, but to argue that the lack of a clear line means that no-one has a culture is stupid.

 

who are you quoting there?

 

And stop saying things like 'I'm looking at it in depth unlike you' that's meaningless rhetoric, in what way is my analysis of this shallow? And in what way is yours deep?

 

 

Not me, it absolutely could. It certainly isn't right now, and I would fight to prevent it from becoming so.

you said it, an impossible standard, its impossible to quantify, yet your happy to let people and by the looks yourself, narrow it down to a couple of things that are "good" and ignore everything else?

isnt that narrow and one track minded?

surely we should accept we ARE a mongrel nation and stop this political stupidness about what defines us?

its not stifeling debate, its about being honest and accepting what we are, unless of course you like to use the "british culture" bit in a debate then i suppose it does stifle you somewhat lol, but its being true, not the mistruths some like the EDL like to peddle

[flamingjimmy]

its not stifeling debate

 

That's precisely what it is.

 

Every single time someone comes on here and starts talking about what they see as a decline in British or English culture you and about 10 other people pop up and immediately tell them they're stupid and there is no british culture and they should just shut up. I think I've probably done it myself a while ago, it is satisfying and fun pointing out to nationalists things like St George coming from palestinine and so forth, I know the temptation.

 

You don't do it to enlighten, you do it to shut them down.

 

You don't want that conversation to happen so you make sure it doesn't by badgering them until they get bogged down in the very hard task of precisely defining culture, a subject that entire books have been written on.

Edited July 12, 2013 by flamingjimmy

[Jessica23]

It's pretty pointless to argue about what British culture is and far more interesting to argue about what it is right now, or is to you, or what it has been in the past, or might be in the future.

 

But then people get defensive about it, because to admit that British culture has changed over time, or is subjective, or might be different in a Gloucester village than in Brixton, is to admit that the bits about it they currently don't like are also part of British culture.

[flamingjimmy]

It's pretty pointless to argue about what British culture is and far more interesting to argue about what it is right now, or is to you, or what it has been in the past, or might be in the future.

 

But then people get defensive about it, because to admit that British culture has changed over time, or is subjective, or might be different in a Gloucester village than in Brixton, is to admit that the bits about it they currently don't like are also part of British culture.

 

Isn't that kind of what they're complaining about?

 

They're saying 'british culture has declined because it now apparently includes x and I don't like that'?

 

Or 'x is now happening in Britain with increasing frequency and I don't like it and don't want it as part of our culture'

 

What's unreasonable about statements like that?

Edited July 12, 2013 by flamingjimmy