Will the EDL ever become a political party?

[melthebell]

That's precisely what it is.

 

Every single time someone comes on here and starts talking about what they see as a decline in British or English culture you and about 10 other people pop up and immediately tell them they're stupid and there is no british culture and they should just shut up. I think I've probably done it myself a while ago, it is satisfying and fun pointing out to nationalists things like St George coming from palestinine and so forth, I know the temptation.

 

You don't do it to enlighten, you do it to shut them down.

 

You don't want that conversation to happen so you make sure it doesn't by badgering them until they get bogged down in the very hard task of precisely defining culture, a subject that entire books have been written on.

no

what you obviously want is people to simplyfy things to the point of nothingness, whereas what i want, if somebody is going to use it as a yardstick, at least know what the definition is, how its marked out. you cant use something in an arguement and then know nothing about it surely?

 

now again ill ask

 

what makes a foriegn import such as fish and chips ok to be classed as british but another one such as a burka or sharia law in a few centuries time absolutely not?

 

there must be a clear reason why? surely?

 

as i said im interested in this notion of britishness and where it comes from, who defines it and what makes it so

[Jessica23]

Isn't that kind of what they're complaining about?

 

They're saying 'british culture has declined because it now apparently includes x and I don't like that'?

 

Yes, precisely, and that's why spending five minutes thinking about the bigger picture (i.e. fish and chips are the 17th century's chicken tikka massala) might persuade them that this is not a sound intellectual position to take. Or force them to admit that what they're dressing up as good old fashioned conservative nostalgia is actually just racism.

[melthebell]

Isn't that kind of what they're complaining about?

 

They're saying 'british culture has declined because it now apparently includes x and I don't like that'?

 

Or 'x is now happening in Britain with increasing frequency and I don't like it and don't want it as part of our culture'

 

What's unreasonable about statements like that?

 

thats exactly what im getting at

 

why is something held up as british when originally it wasnt? yet something else is seen as not?

 

we might have a palastinian roman soldier as a patron saint but reggae will never be seen as english, even "british" reggae

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 18:15 ----------

 

Yes, precisely, and that's why spending five minutes thinking about the bigger picture (i.e. fish and chips are the 17th century's chicken tikka massala) might persuade them that this is not a sound intellectual position to take. Or force them to admit that what they're dressing up as good old fashioned conservative nostalgia is actually just racism.

finally somebody using a couple of the old grey braincells and thinking in a joined up manner

[flamingjimmy]

Yes, precisely, and that's why spending five minutes thinking about the bigger picture (i.e. fish and chips are the 17th century's chicken tikka massala) might persuade them that this is not a sound intellectual position to take.

How so? Because I really don't think that follows. Let's break it down:

 

A lot of things things that originally came from other cultures have been adopted wholeheartedly by the British and are now considered part of British culture.

 

Therefore arguing that things from other cultures that you don't like shouldn't be allowed to become part of your culture is wrong.

 

Can you flesh that argument out a bit and make it sound and valid?

 

Because right now it is neither.

 

Also, who's arguing that Chicken Tikka Masala shouldn't be part of British culture? I've not heard that complaint very much.

 

Or force them to admit that what they're dressing up as good old fashioned conservative nostalgia is actually just racism.

Often it is both.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 18:22 ----------

 

what makes a foriegn import such as fish and chips ok to be classed as british but another one such as a burka or sharia law in a few centuries time absolutely not?

 

Because fish and chips is a harmless food.

 

I think secularism is vital to a free society, and is the only guarantee of religious freedom.

 

And I think the practise of covering females faces is sinister and oppresive, and it is impossible to eliminate the possibility of coercion by domineering males.

 

What terrible examples you chose to pick.

Edited July 12, 2013 by flamingjimmy

[melthebell]

How so? Because I really don't think that follows. Let's break it down:

 

A lot of things things that originally came from other cultures have been adopted wholeheartedly by the British and are now considered part of British culture.

youre starting to sound like the proverbial broken record

 

so why do certain things become "british" and how and why dont other things?

 

is it like the dictionary where the powers that be decide? or just because something takes off on a massive scale by the population?

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 18:23 ----------

 

How so? Because I really don't think that follows. Let's break it down:

 

A lot of things things that originally came from other cultures have been adopted wholeheartedly by the British and are now considered part of British culture.

 

Therefore arguing that things from other cultures that you don't like shouldn't be allowed to become part of your culture is wrong.

 

Can you flesh that argument out a bit and make it sound and valid?

 

Because right now it is neither.

 

Often it is both.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 18:22 ----------

 

 

Because fish and chips is a harmless food.

 

I think secularism is vital to a free society.

 

And I think the practise of covering females faces is sinister and oppresive, and it is impossible to eliminate the possibility of coercion by domineering males.

 

What terrible examples you chose to pick.

 

so like i said its chosen as whats deemed "good" and whats deemed "bad"?

 

so places like spain or peru its a yay, but things from the middle east or of a muslim slant would be a no no way without even a second glance?

[flamingjimmy]

so like i said its chosen as whats deemed "good" and whats deemed "bad"?

Yes.

 

so places like spain or peru its a yay, but things from the middle east or of a muslim slant would be a no no way without even a second glance?

No for me this has absolutely nothing to do with where they came from. Did you not read my response? I gave you a very frank and consise summary of what I think of fish and chips, sharia law, and burkas and made no reference to any geography or ethnicity or specific religion.

 

And it clearly doesn't matter that much for other people either, hence the popularity of middle eastern and south asian food. Recently I've seen turkish restaurants popping up a lot, and they're awesome, but by your logic I should rejecting them because they're from an Islamic country. You really did choose some bad examples.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 18:35 ----------

 

youre starting to sound like the proverbial broken record

And you're continuing to do so. Can you flesh that argument out perhaps?

 

so why do certain things become "british" and how and why dont other things?

 

is it like the dictionary where the powers that be decide? or just because something takes off on a massive scale by the population?

 

Just because something could become British does not mean we should allow it to do so.

 

Yes, if something was taken up on a massive scale it would become part of the culture, but if that something is bad then we shouldn't let that happen.

Edited July 12, 2013 by flamingjimmy

[retep]

it doesnt bother me in the slightest that we speak, eat or whatever foriegn, why do you think i do??

quite the opposite, im happy who i am, where i come from and whatever outside influences the country picks up on the way through history

 

what DOES get to me tho is the way some folk, of the hard of thinking variety use it as a weapon, like i said, against foriegn influences, against immigration, against muslims....and that is silly

the EDL use the british culture thing, completely ignoring our centuries of foriegn influences on how we live our lives

the stupidity is breath taking

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 17:52 ----------

 

you said it, an impossible standard, its impossible to quantify, yet your happy to let people and by the looks yourself, narrow it down to a couple of things that are "good" and ignore everything else?

isnt that narrow and one track minded?

surely we should accept we ARE a mongrel nation and stop this political stupidness about what defines us?

its not stifeling debate, its about being honest and accepting what we are, unless of course you like to use the "british culture" bit in a debate then i suppose it does stifle you somewhat lol, but its being true, not the mistruths some like the EDL like to peddle

 

Made up of what.

[melthebell]

Made up of what.

 

errrrrrrrm

whoever came here previously for thousands of years? and left their influences?

i think you know a bit about history to guess who?

[retep]

errrrrrrrm

whoever came here previously for thousands of years? and left their influences?

i think you know a bit about history to guess who?

 

You are the one who mentioned a mongrel nation, you should be able to back it up, give us an instance.

[Jessica23]

If my argument isn't sound or valid, jimmy, I'm really not going to waste my time attempting to persuade you otherwise.

 

From where I'm standing, though, the awareness that the entire edifice we know as British culture is built on a mass of influences and imports, historical changes and fluxes, subjective interpretations, and so on and so forth is more than enough for me to take the position that anyone arguing about a decline of British culture is being horrendously simplistic at best.