Will the EDL ever become a political party?

[Michael_W]

I see this thread has become an argument about culture, cultural influences and our history.

Well my two penn'orth is that much of the argument, like any, becomes circular .... the English / British have imported and adopted cultural habits of those who came here, and likewise the cultural influence the English / British have had in other countries.

We can't argue and say we have no culture, we have a rich one in 'modern world' terms regardless of how we came about it !

Is football, cricket, rugby, tennis, darts, snooker, badminton, the arts, fashion and popular music not synonymous with 'our' culture ?

We can argue about influence, but so can every other countries peoples, it's just not reasonable though to put down things that are accepted as English / British in an argument about racist people or racism .... IMHO !

[flamingjimmy]

If my argument isn't sound or valid, jimmy, I'm really not going to waste my time attempting to persuade you otherwise.

You didn't really put forward much of an argument, you merely stated your conclusion, that's why I had to guess at what your argument was, and asked you to flesh it out fully for me, because I assumed my version must be incomplete because it was certainly not sound and not valid.

 

And stating that an argument is sound does not make it so, laying it out in a clear and logical way is the best way to demonstrate soundness, which is what I was trying to get you to do.

 

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong and nothing will change my mind, precisely the opposite.

 

Maybe you're right and you can change my mind if your argument works.

 

From where I'm standing, though, the awareness that the entire edifice we know as British culture is built on a mass of influences and imports, historical changes and fluxes, subjective interpretations, and so on and so forth is more than enough for me to take the position that anyone arguing about a decline of British culture is being horrendously simplistic at best.

It's very hard to talk about a decline in culture generally, but however simple it may be it is true that if you add something that makes british culture worse, it will have declined.

 

So if someone identifies something that appears to be becoming a part of british culture, and they think that thing is bad, it follows entirely logically that adopting that thing would lead to a decline in the culture.

Edited July 12, 2013 by flamingjimmy

[melthebell]

You are the one who mentioned a mongrel nation, you should be able to back it up, give us an instance.

romans, saxons to name but two, come on dont act stupid

[Jessica23]

You didn't really put forward much of an argument, you merely stated your conclusion, that's why I had to guess at what your argument was, and asked you to flesh it out fully for me, because I assumed my version must be incomplete because it was certainly not sound and not valid.

 

And stating that an argument is sound does not make it so, laying it out in a clear and logical way is the best way to demonstrate soundness, which is what I was trying to get you to do.

 

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong and nothing will change my mind, precisely the opposite.

 

It's very hard to talk about a decline in culture generally, but however simple it may be it is true that if you add something that makes british culture worse, it will have declined.

 

So if someone identifies something that appears to be becoming a part of british culture, and they think that thing is bad, it follows entirely logically that adopting that thing would lead to a decline in the culture.

 

Ah, jimmy, it was rhetoric. I don't care if it isn't logical or sound. I'm debating on a forum largely populated by morons, what do I care if you want to pick holes in things? I never claimed it was sound. If you are not persuaded by my rhetoric, I'll deal with the crushing blow.

 

And what you claim here is true it only true if we have consensus on what equals worse. We don't. You might believe that the burqua makes British culture worse but I can find you ten people who say it doesn't. (I am not, for the purposes of this post, going to be one of them because who has the energy for that can of worms? Not me.)

 

And given that, it follows entirely logically that if I disagree with a person's definition of worse, I am entirely free to point and laugh at them for claiming there's a decline in British culture.

[flamingjimmy]

Ah, jimmy, it was rhetoric. I don't care if it isn't logical or sound. I'm debating on a forum largely populated by morons, what do I care if you want to pick holes in things? I never claimed it was sound. If you are not persuaded by my rhetoric, I'll deal with the crushing blow.

Well I have to say that's disappointing. If you don't have a valid argument for your position then you shouldn't be defending it.You need to actually find the truth before you construct rhetoric to convince others of it.

 

Are you just here to score internet points or are you actually seeking truth? Is that not the purpose of debate?

 

And what you claim here is true it only true if we have consensus on what equals worse. We don't.

No what I claim is true regardless, whether we actually do anything about it is what depends on consensus. And I do acknowledge that we do not have consensus on all these things, that's precisely why we need to have these discussions and not let them be shut down by people who refuse to talk about it because fish and chips came from spain for example.

 

You might believe that the burqua makes British culture worse but I can find you ten people who say it doesn't. (I am not, for the purposes of this post, going to be one of them because who has the energy for that can of worms? Not me.)

Great, bring them I'll talk with them.

 

This is precisely my point, you apparently are not willing to have the necessary conversations because they're hard and uncomfortable, and they do take up a lot of energy, so instead you have chosen to simply try and shut them down it would seem.

[Jessica23]

Seeking internet points for taking a lefty position on SF? Are you serious?

[melthebell]

Seeking internet points for taking a lefty position on SF? Are you serious?

he pretends hes impartial but is as paranoid and up his arse as the rest of em

[flamingjimmy]

Seeking internet points for taking a lefty position on SF? Are you serious?

 

Yes, there's a whole host of people on here with whom taking the pseudo-progressive position would gain you internet points. Exhibit A: Mel has already given you a good old slap on the back for that comment, and thrown in an insult for me.

 

Just because there's also a whole host of people who'll disagree with you too doesn't change that.

 

You just explicitly said that you don't care about the soundness or validity of your argument, what other conclusion am I to draw from that other than you just want to ruffle some feathers and make the other lefties like you?

 

I'm the one who risks losing stock in this conversation, I'm pretty left wing myself and the people who I want to like me will like me less for saying these things, and there's a very real risk that people I hate might quote me and agree with me, but that's the price I pay.

 

he pretends hes impartial but is as paranoid and up his arse as the rest of em

You coward, if you're no longer going to engage with my argument instead of making snidey little comments about me how about you just go back to trading insults with the racists to make yourself feel better, I think retep will be back soon, that'll be fun for you. Edited July 12, 2013 by flamingjimmy

[Jessica23]

Yes, there's a whole host of people on here with whom taking the pseudo-progressive position would gain you internet points.

 

Just because there's also a whole host of people who'll disagree with you too doesn't change that.

 

You just explicitly said that you don't care about the soundness or validity of your argument, what other conclusion am I to draw from that other than you just want to ruffle some feathers and make the other lefties like you?

 

Make the other lefties like me? Good grief, man.

 

I explicitly said what I said because I am bone-weary of being pulled apart on this forum for positions that are to me self-evident. And they're not self-evident because I'm an arrogant arsehole who believes my word is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. They are self-evident because they're based on many, many years of thinking, writing, reading and teaching this stuff.

 

I'm sure you'd agree with me that a lot of the people who post on here are mindless idiots and/or trolls. You are not one of them, which is why it's extra-specially wearying to be pulled apart by you. If you want to defend someone's right to argue the decline of British culture because they hate Islam, be my guest. But don't do it by nitpicking my original post, which suggested nothing more controversial than 'a bit context might help with that racism you've got going on there.'

 

(Note for literalists: this is a sort of exaggeration of my original post, for rhetorical effect.)

 

I don't avoid difficult conversations, or try and shut down debate on here. I call out crap when I see it, and 'decline in British culture', as a phrase, is a knee-jerk, tabloideseque bit of ignorance that it's a shame to see anyone try and defend.

 

You want to debate the burqua, or Islamic extremism, or whatever - again, be my guest. But it needs to be specific. I do not, cannot and will not buy that anything practised by considerably less than 5% of the population is worth being cited as a decline in British culture, in whatever form it takes. To be particularly robust about it: how fragile do you think this culture is if a few burquas undermine it? It's laughable from multiple positions, not least the sense of perspective one.

[maxmaximus]

would that be cos itd be halal?

 

No, I eat and like halal kebabs, I've just never heard of Muslim curry.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2013 at 20:45 ----------

 

as ive asked before state what YOU think english culture includes, everytime its asked it gets ignored

 

I posted a link a couple of pages back.

 

A-Z Guide of British Life and Culture