Will the EDL ever become a political party?

[andygardener]

To be frank the statement is too long and full of contradictions and dances around the point to be able to highlight all the things 'wrong' with it.

but at least I tried.

 

It is long and cyan is not good to fisk in but you tried. Fair play.

 

Lets start at the beginning shall we?

 

EDL "The English Defence League (EDL) is a human rights organisation that was founded in the wake of the shocking actions of a small group of Muslim extremists who, at a homecoming parade in Luton, openly mocked the sacrifices of our service personnel without any fear of censure"

 

YOU "why should they be censored, their point/opinion is as valid as any one elses is it not?"

 

Now we have a lot of historical points of reference for this from catholics to nazis to saxons to jacobites to...you get the picture. When we are at war with the X's they don't get allowed to wander round giving it plenty. Even if they were born here. Or indeed can trace their family back for 15 generations as british, is you're supporting the enemy then into prison you go my friend.

 

We are at war with jihadis. So Johny jihad should not be able to be "equally valid" in screaming abuse at our troops as someone collecting for the RNLI down the street.

 

However the powers that be let these creatures go off like this. Is it unreasonable that the people objected to the powers that be letting them behave like this? I don't think it is.

 

So we have as I see it a valid cause for the EDL to be formed.

 

Islamist rats abusing our troops in our towns without action from our government seems a perfectly reasonable causus belli to me, do you not agree?

[skinz]

Well now the English Defence League has a Mission Statement……

(1) HUMAN RIGHTS: Protecting And Promoting Human Rights

The English Defence League (EDL) is a human rights organisation that was founded in the wake of the shocking actions of a small group of Muslim extremists who, at a homecoming parade in Luton, openly mocked the sacrifices of our service personnel without any fear of censure.why should they be censored, their point/opinion is as valid as any one elses is it not? Although these actions were certainly those of a minority, we believe that they reflect other forms of religiously-inspired intolerance and barbarity that are thriving amongst certain sections of the Muslim population in Britain: including, but not limited to, the denigration and oppression of women, the molestation of young children, the committing of so-called honour killings, homophobia, anti-Semitism, and continued support for those responsible for terrorist atrocities.actions that are certainly not limited to muslims, If you've a problem with these things why the focus on such a small group?

Whilst we must always protect against the unjust assumption that all Muslims are complicit in or somehow responsible for these crimes, we must not be afraid to speak freely about these issues. this is true, we should (for all) This is why the EDL will continue to work to protect the inalienable rights of all people to protest against radical Islam’s encroachment into the lives of non-Muslims.

We also recognise that Muslims themselves are frequently the main victims of some Islamic traditions and practices. The Government should protect the individual human rights of members of British Muslims.It does. It should ensure that they can openly criticise Islamic orthodoxy,They can challenge Islamic leaders without fear of retribution, receive full equality before the law (including equal rights for Muslim women),They do and leave Islam if they see fit,they can without fear of censure.from who?

British Muslims should be able to safely demand reform of their religion.They can create a new religion and they can leave the religion whenever they want. the in order to make it more relevant to the needs of the modern world and more respectful of other groups in society. It is important that they completely reject the views of those who believe that Islam should be taken in its ‘original’, 7th century form, because these interpretations are the antithesis of Western democracy. The onus should be on British Muslims to overcome the problems that blight their religion and and achieve nothing short of an Islamic reformation. In line with this, we should do all that we can to empower those who are willing to take this path. We must also ensure that they do not fear reprisals from those who, in line with these 7th century interpretations, would force sharia law upon them. I completely agree with this part but its already done. Maybe more education is needed to ensure anyone in the uk know they can go to the police.

The EDL calls upon the Government to repeal legislation that prevents effective freedom of speech, for freedom of speech is essential if the human rights abuses that sometimes manifest themselves around Islam are to be stopped. Again why the focus on islam?

We believe that the proponents of radical Islam have a stranglehold on some British Muslims. These radicals dominate some Muslim organisations, remain key figures in some British mosques, and are steadily increasing their influence. Radical Islam keeps some British Muslims fearful and isolated, especially the women that it encases in the Burqa. It misrepresents their views, stifles freedom of expression, and indoctrinates their children, whilst continually doing a discredit to those who do wish to peacefully co-exist with their fellow Britons.It does ? and if it does who cares?

(2) DEMOCRACY AND THE RULE OF LAW: Promoting Democracy And The Rule Of Law By Opposing Sharia

The European Court of Human Rights has declared that ‘sharia is incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy’.that'd be cause its not democratic Despite this, there are still those who are more than willing to accommodate sharia norms, and who believe that sharia can operate in partnership with our existing traditions and customs. In reality, sharia cannot operate fully as anything other than a complete alternative to our existing legal, political, and social systems.so Im getting the impression here of a complete islamic takeover, all 60 million of us..really sounds a little far fetched. It is not actually a revolution that this country does not want, and one that it must resist. Sharia is most definitely a threat to our democracy. no it isn't and if it was it doen't say a lot for the strength of our democracy

The operation of Islamic courts,this shouldn't be tolerated as it is a side step of our laws the often unreasonable demand that Islam is given more respect than it is due,eh? and the stealthy incursion of halal meat into the food industry, all demonstrate that sharia is already creeping into our lives. thats just pure capitalist greed/common sense, take kfc fr instance, 'Man from doncater do you really care how your chicken is killed before we fry it?'.. 'er no not really'.. 'Islamic man from doncaster..'yes I'd like you to kill it in a particular way before you fry it.' the chickens going to die its a bit shallow to argue about how it dies, its just a string of atoms. a Resentment is already beginning to grow, and could create dangerous divisions if nothing is done. The primacy of British courts must be maintained and defended, fair criticism of religious and political ideologies must be permitted, I'm very sure we have very 'fair' criticism of religious and politics. and consumers must be provided with the information necessary to avoid halal produce should they wish.

Restaurants and fast food chains that do offer halal options should offer non-halal alternatives as well, why? vote with your feet, or start your own..in order to show respect for other people’s religions, customs, and possible concerns about animal welfare issues (surrounding ritual slaughter). No one should be made to consume halal produce unwittingly, so it must always be labeled – in supermarkets, in restaurants, in schools, and in hospitals – wherever it is available. Free choice in these matters is, after all, a fundamental human right for everybody, not just the Muslim community.

its so sad that he focus is on halal rather than the myriad of western 'food' techniques we've developed.

Sharia law makes a fundamental distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims, and the EDL will never allow this sort of iniquitous apartheid to take root in our country. The EDL will therefore oppose sharia appeasement in all its forms, and will actively work to eradicate the sharia-compliant behaviours that are already being adopted, and enforced, in our society. How?

(3) PUBLIC EDUCATION: Ensuring That The Public Get A Balanced Picture Of Islam

A central part of the EDL’s mission is public education. The British political and media establishment have, for a long time, been presenting a very sanitised and therefore inaccurate view of Islam, really? I'd never realised are you trying to say that the media isn't entirely honest? get out of town.shaped by the needs of policy-makers rather than the needs of the public. This has acted as a barrier to informed policy-making and made finding the solution to real problems impossible. In pursuing this self-defeating and destructive policy, the Government has effectively been acting as the propaganda arm of the Muslim Brotherhood.ha aha ah ahhaha Whether or not is aware of the predicament that it has put itself in, it has so far failed to honestly admit its failures.

We are committed to a campaign of public education to ensure that all aspects of Islam that impact on our society can debated in an open and honest way. Demonisation of Muslims, or of Islam’s critics, adds nothing to the debate.glad to hear but is a given We believe that only by looking at all the facts can society be most effectively and humanly governed. If there are aspects of Muslim tradition that encourage the activities of Islamic radicals and criminals then these need to be properly addressed without fear of accusations of racism, xenophobia, or the even the disingenuous term ‘Islamophobia’.

The public must be provided with a more realistic and less sanitised view of Islam by who? by the edl, by the private media..who?that allows it to ensure that decision-makers are held to account for their policy-making choices, they are choices that affect the harmony and security of the nation. the general view of islam in the media is wholly derogotory the pov that they are being cast in a golden glow is just plain opposite to the truth.

The EDL promotes the understanding of Islam It does? how? and the implications for non-Muslims forced to live alongside it.its not a bypass or an office block, no-ones ever force me into a mosque. Islam is not just a religious system, but a political and social ideology that seeks to dominate all non-believers good luck on that one in this countryand quite a few others and impose a harsh legal system that rejects democratic accountability and human rights.ditto It runs counter to all that we hold dear within our British liberal democracy, and it must be prepared to change, to conform to secular, liberal ideals and laws, and to contribute to social harmony, rather than causing divisions. Islam is not a person, the practitioners of islam yes in the uk must be prepared to adapt, leave or suffer the consequences in law that's already a given.

(4) RESPECTING TRADITION: Promoting The Traditions And Culture Of England While At The Same Time Being Open To Embrace The Best That Other Cultures Can Offer. here we go..

The EDL believes that English Culture has the right to exist and prosper in England. We recognise that culture is not static, that over time changes take place naturally and that other cultures make contributions that make our shared culture stronger and more vibrant. However, this does not give license to policy-makers to deliberately undermine our culture how would that happen?? and impose non-English cultures on the English people in their own land. which contradicts the aknowledgement that the english culture is not static ie non english to begin with

If people migrate to this country then they should be expected to respect our culture no they shouldn't, its laws,yes they should and its traditions,no they shouldn't and not expect their own cultures to be promoted by agencies of the state.why not? The best of their cultures will be absorbed naturally and when do we decide what, when, how ect ect its a massive hypocritical statement and we will all be united by the enhanced culture that results. The onus should always be on foreign cultures to adapt and integrate why? As a nation Britain isn't exactly renown for its integration skills check out Gibralitar, Tasmania and er about half the world. If said cultures promote anti-democratic ideas and refuse to accept the authority of our nation’s laws, then the host nation should not be bowing to these ideas in the name of ’cultural sensitivity’.yep agree with that (unless theres a good reason, different debate though) Law enforcement personnel must be able to enforce the rule of law thoroughly without prejudice or fear. from whom?from Everyone, after all, is supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law. they are aren't they, well except the rich, they have different laws don't they?

The EDL is therefore keen to draw its support from people of all races, all faiths, all political persuasions, and all lifestyle choices. Under its umbrella, all people in England, whatever their background, or origin, can stand united in a desire to stop the imposition of the rules of Islam such a tiny focus though don't you think?on non-believers. In order to ensure the continuity of our culture which earliar they stated would change anyway and its institutions, the EDL stands opposed to the creeping Islamisation of our country, because intimately related to the spread of Islamic religion is the political desire to implement an undemocratic alternative to our cherished way of life: the sharia. sorry its not going to happen, your work should be directed to simply informing the police when our laws are broken.

Our armed forces stand up and risk their lives every day in order to protect our culture and democratic way of life.that is debatable They are also reflective of England’s diversity, and are a shining example of what a people can achieve when united together. The EDL is therefore committed to opposing any and all abuse that our men and women in uniform are subjected to, and will campaign for legal remedies to ensure that those working within these important institutions are not exposed to abuse or aggression from within our country.

(5) INTERNATIONAL OUTLOOK: Working In Solidarity With Others Around The World

The EDL is keen to join with others who share our values, wherever they are in the world, and from whatever cultural background they derive. We believe that the demand for sharia is global I can tell you there's not much demand for sharia on my street and therefore needs to be tackled at a global as well as national level, so that this demand will never be succumbed to. The EDL will therefore have an international outlook to enhance and strengthen our domestic efforts, whilst at the same time contributing to the global struggle against Islamic intolerance of Western cultures, The time for tolerating intolerance has come to an end Is that meant to be funny?: it is time for the whole world to unite against a truly Global Jihad.what does that even mean?

 

You're right, it was daggers to the eye.

Edited July 12, 2013 by skinz

[psynuk]

Only if you don't respect the rules of this country.

It comes across as very hypocritical for one group to say you can't have your say cause it is opposite to mine.

the EDL do not want them(the protesters) to have the opportunity to give their opinion. It may be distasteful, inflammatory and contrary to ones beliefs but it is their right.

If you believe in your cause the protests of others will probably not be heeded anyway.

A prime example is the protest against the Iraq war. Supposedly 36 million people around the world protested against the war, that's a lot of people and the protests were ignored inasmuch as the war went ahead anyway. Because the powers that be believed they were in the right.(debatable)

 

The other Main parts of the EDL's mission statement are; the opposition of Sharia law- It's not law here so its just a case of finding and prosecuting those guilty. The laws are already in place for that.

The other point is about English culture and the rise of islamic culture in this country, thats really hard to define already and impossible to stop changes to it. This is hinted at in the EDLs own mission statement, so I can't really see what their point is (bar the obvious simple racism) but their mission statement repeatedly talks of not being racist but the whole thing is full of racist overtones.

Maybe its me but their crusade seems mis-directed and seems to be backed by people who on one hand complain about the circumvention of british law by sharia but on the other aren't exactly law abiding themselves..

 

---------- Post added 13-07-2013 at 01:02 ----------

 

You're right, it was daggers to the eye.

 

I was wondering how to do that?

Edited July 13, 2013 by psynuk

[skinz]

 

I was wondering how to do that?

 

I just replaced Red with Cyan within the quotation marks.

[andygardener]

Only if you don't respect the rules of this country.

It comes across as very hypocritical for one group to say you can't have your say cause it is opposite to mine.

the EDL do not want them(the protesters) to have the opportunity to give their opinion. It may be distasteful, inflammatory and contrary to ones beliefs but it is their right.

If you believe in your cause the protests of others will probably not be heeded anyway.

A prime example is the protest against the Iraq war. Supposedly 36 million people around the world protested against the war, that's a lot of people and the protests were ignored inasmuch as the war went ahead anyway. Because the powers that be believed they were in the right.(debatable)

ok lets live in magic pixy land where everything is equally valid and not Britain where Mosely was rightly jailed as an enemy despite impecable "British" credentials. But the validity of enemy groups to opperate in the UK is another argument, you're talking FREE SPEECH MAN!!!!

 

Read what you wrote there. "It comes across as very hypocritical for one group to say you can't have your say cause it is opposite to mine. "

 

How do you feel about that statement? Do you stand by it? Do you apply it to the EDL?

[psynuk]

Yes absolutely! they are free to say what they want, I wouldn't have it any other way. (that I can think of)

 

I'd like to think that If I had some view that others found distasteful the'yd try and bring me round to a 'better' way of thinking. In fact it has happened in the past, it may in the future.

You give you take, you live you learn.

[skinz]

ok lets live in magic pixy land where everything is equally valid and not Britain where Mosely was rightly jailed as an enemy despite impecable "British" credentials. But the validity of enemy groups to opperate in the UK is another argument, you're talking FREE SPEECH MAN!!!!

 

Read what you wrote there. "It comes across as very hypocritical for one group to say you can't have your say cause it is opposite to mine. "

 

How do you feel about that statement? Do you stand by it? Do you apply it to the EDL?

 

I agree but I'm not sure psynuk is arguing censorship, but rather hypocrisy.

[Marx]

With free speech comes the responsibility to make a valid argument for one's position. I don't see that with edl. They tend to be at the lower end of the league when it comes to spelling, grammar, emotional intelligence and logical reasoning and seem incapable of defending their position without resorting to threats and abuse.

[andygardener]

Yes absolutely! they are free to say what they want, I wouldn't have it any other way. (that I can think of)

 

I'd like to think that If I had some view that others found distasteful the'yd try and bring me round to a 'better' way of thinking. In fact it has happened in the past, it may in the future.

You give you take, you live you learn.

 

So set of revolting inhuman islamist animals are screaming abuse at British soldiers returning from theatre. You class that as free speech, arguable..but lets let that slide. That's what happened. That is why the EDL was formed. Some lads said that's not on without being countered and the police where facilitating it.

 

So we go back to your first point in your fisk, and I have to ask the question to you and anyone actually, under those circumstances do you think it was wrong to form the EDL to object to this?

 

Because I'll be very clear that I don't. To fail to object to that disgusting islamist carry on seems damn shabby. To organise to oppose it, damn decent.

[psynuk]

[/color]

ok lets live in magic pixy land where everything is equally valid and not Britain where Mosely was rightly jailed as an enemy despite impecable "British" credentials. But the validity of enemy groups to opperate in the UK is another argument, you're talking FREE SPEECH MAN!!!!

 

Read what you wrote there. "It comes across as very hypocritical for one group to say you can't have your say cause it is opposite to mine. "

 

How do you feel about that statement? Do you stand by it? Do you apply it to the EDL?

 

Are you trying to say Mosely was unjustly put under house arrest?

 

So set of revolting inhuman islamist animals are screaming abuse at British soldiers returning from theatre. You class that as free speech, arguable..but lets let that slide. That's what happened. That is why the EDL was formed. Some lads said that's not on without being countered and the police where facilitating it.

 

So we go back to your first point in your fisk, and I have to ask the question to you and anyone actually, under those circumstances do you think it was wrong to form the EDL to object to this?

 

Because I'll be very clear that I don't. To fail to object to that disgusting islamist carry on seems damn shabby. To organise to oppose it, damn decent.

 

No, It is entirely their right, If they feel the need to object to a bunch of people who hold some views they find distasteful by all means fill yer boots.

Edited July 13, 2013 by psynuk