buck Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 You can't see why non-Americans, outside the US, might be interested in the story? It all depends on how that interest is applied. The "Only in America" connotation is almost always able to be applied to countries like yours as well. We're not unique and not much interested in what goes on elsewhere either unless it really concerns us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsuchan Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Russia's leader Vladimir Putin is making it very clear that he's happy enough for US-Russia relations to move again into the cold war era ---------- Post added 01-07-2013 at 16:43 ---------- Just to test the extent of your belief, if he had come across irrefutable evidence that the authorities for which he worked were secretly murdering fellow citizens, would you still hold him to his oath of non-disclosure? That's nothing to do with the issue. Course it's to do with the issue... it's exploring whether the writer believes anything constitutes a public interest disclosure, contravening a non-discloure oath. What is served by the sabre rattling against Russia (or China)? Surely the USA administration and its supporters should be looking inwardly at this point to reflect upon its own actions which have effectively alienated many countries which the USA itself counted among its allies; and a substantial proportion of its own citizens who manifestly feel betrayed by those elected to act on their behalf. Doesn't it behove a country to vilify another country on a basis which is well supported, rather than on an issue in which it can count so few among its supporters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosxuk Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 It all depends on how that interest is applied. The "Only in America" connotation is almost always able to be applied to countries like yours as well. We're not unique and not much interested in what goes on elsewhere either unless it really concerns us. You miss the point. Harleyman said that PRISM as an American system was only spying on him, and he's happy for that to happen, so all us nosy people in Sheffield should but out and leave them to it as it doesn't affect us. It seemed to completely escape him that the system was set up to spy on us as non-American's, it most certainly does affect us and as such we're entitled to hold an opinion. The equivalent would be us telling you and Harleyman to be quiet if it comes out that GCHQ have set up a system to spy on American citizens with no oversight by the US authorities because it doesn't concern you and we're happy for it to carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anywebsite Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 You miss the point. Harleyman said that PRISM as an American system was only spying on him, and he's happy for that to happen, so all us nosy people in Sheffield should but out and leave them to it as it doesn't affect us. It seemed to completely escape him that the system was set up to spy on us as non-American's, it most certainly does affect us and as such we're entitled to hold an opinion. The equivalent would be us telling you and Harleyman to be quiet if it comes out that GCHQ have set up a system to spy on American citizens with no oversight by the US authorities because it doesn't concern you and we're happy for it to carry on. That did come out about GCHQ. They tapped the G20 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/16/gchq-intercepted-communications-g20-summits And a lot of the world's submarine cables... British spy agency collects and stores vast quantities of global email messages, Facebook posts, internet histories and calls, and shares them with NSA, latest documents from Edward Snowden reveal. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa What I don't understand is that everybody knew we were paying large agencies to tap all communications since just after WW2, GCHQ here & the NSA in the US. So why are people surprised when they're caught doing their job? You're entitled to have an opinion, but it's not going to stop countries spying on each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosxuk Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 That did come out about GCHQ. Yeah, I meant to put "when", not "if". What I don't understand is that everybody knew we were paying large agencies to tap all communications since just after WW2, GCHQ here & the NSA in the US. So why are people surprised when they're caught doing their job? You're entitled to have an opinion, but it's not going to stop countries spying on each other. I think the problem is that people assume the various agencies are working together, and that their privacy is protected by their local government and their security agency. The bit that feels weird (to me at least) is that GCHQ can't spy on UK citizens without getting permission, but the NSA can do as they like and then share the results with GCHQ. If so, what's the point in any of our current privacy laws if none of the people who they stop need to abide by them thanks to gaping holes in the legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Course it's to do with the issue... it's exploring whether the writer believes anything constitutes a public interest disclosure, contravening a non-discloure oath. What is served by the sabre rattling against Russia (or China)? Surely the USA administration and its supporters should be looking inwardly at this point to reflect upon its own actions which have effectively alienated many countries which the USA itself counted among its allies; and a substantial proportion of its own citizens who manifestly feel betrayed by those elected to act on their behalf. Doesn't it behove a country to vilify another country on a basis which is well supported, rather than on an issue in which it can count so few among its supporters? Based on that logic we would have lost the cold war. If every tom, dick and harry working for the FBI, CIA, MI.6, M'I.5 had talked about or made public everything he saw or did then we'd have been sunk. Intelligence gathering is a covert operation. it's done by just about every government in every leading nation in the world. The Chinese and Russians are experts at it and have been spying on their own people for eons plus they have a sophisticated network of informers. Vladimir Putin is still very much a Colonel in the KGB and knows that Snowden will go on blabbing not just about whose spying on who but also information that should not be known to a country like Russia.... which... make no mistake is still hostile to the US no matter all the BS that passes between leaders at the G8 summit. There's no widespread outcry against monitoring phone calls and E-mails of certain sections of the public who could be persons of interest. Most people realize that any future terrorist attack will be aimed at America, at any city. If monitoring as such should infringe on UK privacy that's probably because Britain is home to religious radical elements and is known to be so throughout Europe. Your own security agencies are already watching these people, even monitoring their correspondence without a doubt only you just haven't heard it officially yet ---------- Post added 01-07-2013 at 18:29 ---------- You miss the point. Harleyman said that PRISM as an American system was only spying on him, and he's happy for that to happen, so all us nosy people in Sheffield should but out and leave them to it as it doesn't affect us. It seemed to completely escape him that the system was set up to spy on us as non-American's, it most certainly does affect us and as such we're entitled to hold an opinion. The equivalent would be us telling you and Harleyman to be quiet if it comes out that GCHQ have set up a system to spy on American citizens with no oversight by the US authorities because it doesn't concern you and we're happy for it to carry on. Well Sheffield should be a place of interest for any agency whose job it is to gather information on possible terrorist plots. I'm sure among the current population there are radical elements in contact with others overseas. PC forbids me to mention any more about these people or groups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosxuk Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Well Sheffield should be a place of interest for any agency whose job it is to gather information on possible terrorist plots. I'm sure among the current population there are radical elements in contact with others overseas. Changed your tune... Anyway the more this thread continues the more I think it's all turning into a big pile of bull**** I dont know why Sheffield folk should get their bowels in an uproar over something that doesnt even impact them. They are my phone records that are involved and I say that its quite okay... case closed (my bold) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsuchan Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Based on that logic we would have lost the cold war. If every tom, dick and harry working for the FBI, CIA, MI.6, M'I.5 had talked about or made public everything he saw or did then we'd have been sunk. Intelligence gathering is a covert operation. it's done by just about every government in every leading nation in the world. The Chinese and Russians are experts at it and have been spying on their own people for eons plus they have a sophisticated network of informers. Vladimir Putin is still very much a Colonel in the KGB and knows that Snowden will go on blabbing not just about whose spying on who but also information that should not be known to a country like Russia.... which... make no mistake is still hostile to the US no matter all the BS that passes between leaders at the G8 summit. This is crossing two issues: The USA administration is threatening Russia and China (and, it has said, any other country that harbours or assists Edward Snowden) is about just that: threats for helping the "fugitive". The issue I was putting to you wasn't about spying on Russia, China, and the rest; it was serving the public interest of his own country's citizens. If the TV news told me Snowden had been leaking US secrets to the Russians, I'd yawn, shrug, change channel, and have no particular sympathy for him. There's no widespread outcry against monitoring phone calls and E-mails of certain sections of the public who could be persons of interest. Most people realize that any future terrorist attack will be aimed at America, at any city. I put to you that the count of (predominantly) US Citizens who have not just believe that he acted in the Public Interest but have actually taken the trouble to petition the White House to pardon Snowden standing (at the last count I saw) 111,000 people, represents "widespread outcry". Surely that's not because they think he's too handsome to be indicted? If monitoring as such should infringe on UK privacy that's probably because Britain is home to religious radical elements and is known to be so throughout Europe. Your own security agencies are already watching these people, even monitoring their correspondence without a doubt only you just haven't heard I don't hold the UK any less culpable. But that's different from the discussion on this thread. We're discussing whether Snowden is hero or villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 This is crossing two issues: The USA administration is threatening Russia and China (and, it has said, any other country that harbours or assists Edward Snowden) is about just that: threats for helping the "fugitive". The issue I was putting to you wasn't about spying on Russia, China, and the rest; it was serving the public interest of his own country's citizens. If the TV news told me Snowden had been leaking US secrets to the Russians, I'd yawn, shrug, change channel, and have no particular sympathy for him. I put to you that the count of (predominantly) US Citizens who have not just believe that he acted in the Public Interest but have actually taken the trouble to petition the White House to pardon Snowden standing (at the last count I saw) 111,000 people, represents "widespread outcry". Surely that's not because they think he's too handsome to be indicted? I don't hold the UK any less culpable. But that's different from the discussion on this thread. We're discussing whether Snowden is hero or villain. 110,000 people being what percentage of a population of 300,000,000? After Obama won the last election there were around 85,000 petitions sent to the White House from Alabama requesting that the state be granted sesssion from the union Small numbers indeed. Snowdon is a whining traitor who probably had some private issue going on at work maybe with a supervisor and decided to get back the way he thought best. Just like Private Bradley Manning of the army who was in a positon of trust in his duties and downloaded a lot of Assanges Wiki Leaks, another misfit with a personal grudge to settle. Snowden belongs to Russia now. His passport is cancelled and he cant travel anywhere They'll probably kiss his backside and get as much info from him as they can and then give him asylum and promptly forget about him. Putin played a bad move in chess though. There will be long term damage to US-Russia relations and was Snowden worth it? ---------- Post added 01-07-2013 at 19:35 ---------- Changed your tune... (my bold) True though aint it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Snowdon is a whining traitor who probably had some private issue going on at work maybe with a supervisor and decided to get back the way he thought best. Seriously? You think he's going to risk his life and liberty for the sake of a petty personal grudge? Throw away his career, squash any chance of having a normal relationship with his friends and family, force him to flee his own country, etc.? How is that more believable than what he said himself? What exactly about his version of what led him to become a whistle-blower do you find unbelievable? ---------- Post added 01-07-2013 at 20:50 ---------- Snowden belongs to Russia now. His passport is cancelled and he cant travel anywhere They'll probably kiss his backside and get as much info from him as they can and then give him asylum and promptly forget about him. ...and tell me, who are the ones who are preventing him from leaving Russia, is it the Russian government or the US government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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