Harleyman Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Harleyman - Security services can legally monitor the internet because it is an open forum. When they discover content that encourages, promotes or aids illegal activity like terrorism then they can legally request information from ISP's about who is visiting the site. Armed with this information they can legally conduct further investigations and if necessary make a request to the courts to legally access private emails, phone calls etc. All of this is perfectly legitimate, happens all the time and is not a problem. What is a problem is when governments and their various agencies ignore constitutional principles and laws designed to prevent abuse of power. It is a step down the path towards totalitarianism and oppression and that is not a price worth paying for security... especially when it will not deliver security. The irony is that you think you are hardline and strong in the face of adversity but the opposite is true. You surrender freedoms for a false security at the slightest sniff of a threat. Frankly, it's embarrassing. The Supreme Court, the Senate and the House of Representatives. the power to impeach and the Constitution plus civilian control of the military are the reason that this country will never become totalitarian. The country is new to democratic principles compared to England for example but 250 years nevertheless has been long enough to ingrain itself among the people that they live in a democracy with iron clad rights to freedom and the pursuit of happiness What we have at the moment is a new threat unlike any other before where one of the weapons used by the enemy is electronic communication and mobile phones. Whether anyone believes it or not we are in some kind of war that is often not apparent. It's only when things like 9/11 and the Boston bombing happen that this is brought home to us in the most brutal and shocking manner. Can we afford to let our guard down by failing to use every method to foil the enemy as much as possible? I'm sure that when in the distant future the threat of terrorism finally disappears that all phone end e-mail records will be destroyed. It's inevitable because it will be demanded and it will be complied with Wasnt the right of freedom of speech restored in Britain after the end of WW2? Did you know that during the war anyone could be arrested for expressing anti-war sentiments or deemed to have said anything negative to the war effort. It was called "spreading alarm and despondency" and was considered a serious crime punishable by imprisonment. Did Britain end up a totalitarian state? Course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 What we have at the moment is a new threat unlike any other before where one of the weapons used by the enemy is electronic communication and mobile phones. Whether anyone believes it or not we are in some kind of war that is often not apparent. It's only when things like 9/11 and the Boston bombing happen that this is brought home to us in the most brutal and shocking manner. The threat is unlike any other you have experienced but is pathetically trivial compared to the real threat to life and liberty faced by early Americans in their fight for freedom. You dishonour them by so cheaply giving up freedom because of threats that are as likely to impact your life as winning the lottery. Where is the perspective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 The threat is unlike any other you have experienced but is pathetically trivial compared to the real threat to life and liberty faced by early Americans in their fight for freedom. You dishonour them by so cheaply giving up freedom because of threats that are as likely to impact your life as winning the lottery. Where is the perspective? An extremely gross exaggeration to say the least. There's no measuring the the likelehood of impact. To say that my chances of being a victim of terrorism are minimal holds no water. It's an unknown factor. A few thousand less fortunate have already been impacted. Shouldnt we care about the impact on them and their families? Others may well be impacted in the future but because I didn't happen to be one of them does that mean I should remain indifferent? It's question of preventing harm. I dont want to see anymore news reel shots of blood spattered sidewalks, an abandoned kid's teddy bear and the kid who was clutching it in the trauma center with his or her legs blown off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenevaBob Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 An extremely gross exaggeration to say the least. There's no measuring the the likelehood of impact. To say that my chances of being a victim of terrorism are minimal holds no water. It's an unknown factor. A few thousand less fortunate have already been impacted. Shouldnt we care about the impact on them and their families? Others may well be impacted in the future but because I didn't happen to be one of them does that mean I should remain indifferent? It's question of preventing harm. I dont want to see anymore news reel shots of blood spattered sidewalks, an abandoned kid's teddy bear and the kid who was clutching it in the trauma center with his or her legs blown off I don't want to turn on CNN, FOX, BBC or Sky to see footage of a group of students in tears because they have just witnessed some of their class mates been gunned down in cold blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I don't want to turn on CNN, FOX, BBC or Sky to see footage of a group of students in tears because they have just witnessed some of their class mates been gunned down in cold blood. When you turn on the tv in the morning you dont know what to expect. I was on my way to a job site on 9/11 and stopped off at a Denny's for breakfast. The first plane had just hit the WTC and in stunned silence everyone watched the second plane hit moments afterwards. People leaping from windows to avoid being burned to death. I was late on the job site that day and everyone there was as distarught as I was How easy it is to foget such happenings and become blase about the possibility of it ever happening again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 The Supreme Court, the Senate and the House of Representatives. the power to impeach and the Constitution plus civilian control of the military are the reason that this country will never become totalitarian. The country is new to democratic principles compared to England for example but 250 years nevertheless has been long enough to ingrain itself among the people that they live in a democracy with iron clad rights to freedom and the pursuit of happiness What we have at the moment is a new threat unlike any other before where one of the weapons used by the enemy is electronic communication and mobile phones. Whether anyone believes it or not we are in some kind of war that is often not apparent. It's only when things like 9/11 and the Boston bombing happen that this is brought home to us in the most brutal and shocking manner. Can we afford to let our guard down by failing to use every method to foil the enemy as much as possible? I'm sure that when in the distant future the threat of terrorism finally disappears that all phone end e-mail records will be destroyed. It's inevitable because it will be demanded and it will be complied with Wasnt the right of freedom of speech restored in Britain after the end of WW2? Did you know that during the war anyone could be arrested for expressing anti-war sentiments or deemed to have said anything negative to the war effort. It was called "spreading alarm and despondency" and was considered a serious crime punishable by imprisonment. Did Britain end up a totalitarian state? Course not. Are you saying that American is in a state of officially declared war with an unknown online foe and that is justification for the suspension of free speech of the entire population? With all due respect I think you've lost it mate. ---------- Post added 09-07-2013 at 22:24 ---------- When you turn on the tv in the morning you dont know what to expect. I was on my way to a job site on 9/11 and stopped off at a Denny's for breakfast. The first plane had just hit the WTC and in stunned silence everyone watched the second plane hit moments afterwards. People leaping from windows to avoid being burned to death. I was late on the job site that day and everyone there was as distarught as I was How easy it is to foget such happenings and become blase about the possibility of it ever happening again You could have turned on the TV during the Iraq war and seen the day by day destruction of Iraqi civilian lives, including the deaths of thousands of children, at the hands of US-led forces. Every day. For years. Get some perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 An extremely gross exaggeration to say the least. The gross exaggeration was you saying "What we have at the moment is a new threat unlike any other before". The tools used by those providing the threat may have changed but the level of threat remains incredible low. There's no measuring the the likelehood of impact. To say that my chances of being a victim of terrorism are minimal holds no water. It's an unknown factor. A few thousand less fortunate have already been impacted. Shouldnt we care about the impact on them and their families? Others may well be impacted in the future but because I didn't happen to be one of them does that mean I should remain indifferent? It's question of preventing harm. I dont want to see anymore news reel shots of blood spattered sidewalks, an abandoned kid's teddy bear and the kid who was clutching it in the trauma center with his or her legs blown off It is possible to measure the threat and put it in perspective. Read this article. In summary, there have been 19 deaths through terrorist activity since 9/11 and you are more likely to be killed by malaria than a terrorist. Is the White House about to issue maleria tablets to the entire population? Of course not because the proportionate response to the level of threat is to do nothing. The difference is that you can't use the threat from malaria as an excuse to disregard consitutional pricinples and laws to snoop on people without due cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psynuk Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 The difference is that you can't use the threat from malaria as an excuse to disregard consitutional pricinples and laws to snoop on people without due cause. I'd probably have more respect fo the US if they actually invaded the saharan regions under the banner war on terror Malaria and took over a region whilst destroying the mosquitoes, something worthy might be achieved then. When you compare the reasons for invasion the mosquitoe is a worthy cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 The gross exaggeration was you saying "What we have at the moment is a new threat unlike any other before". The tools used by those providing the threat may have changed but the level of threat remains incredible low. And you get this from where exactly? Has an official from the anti-terrorist squad branch of M.I.6 called and told you this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinz Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 What we have at the moment is a new threat unlike any other before where one of the weapons used by the enemy is electronic communication and mobile phones. Whether anyone believes it or not we are in some kind of war that is often not apparent. It's only when things like 9/11 and the Boston bombing happen that this is brought home to us in the most brutal and shocking manner. So in order to protect freedoms you advocate removing them, or applying your own version of freedom. Do you understand the basic concept of freedom? I'd give up on golf and concentrate on Sudoku or summat..much healthier for the dying cells, or what's left of em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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